Gee, Greg. Now I am beginning to worry about you! This is certainly right up there among the "most unusual exchanges) among you CAUT guys! Dave On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Gregory J. Granoff < Gregory.Granoff at humboldt.edu> wrote: > Well, actually went to this guy's house a couple days ago and he freely > admits that the whole business would be laughed off by the mainstream > medical community as BS. > He is in his house, though there is a big filtering arrangement that looks > like it was stolen from the hvac system of a public building working away > in his garage and filtering all the air in the house, and as far as I can > tell, the only plans he has for the piano so far are to have me take the > action outside and blast it out with compressed air, vacuum the piano out > thoroughly with a hepa filter vacuum, and wash external surfaces. No talk > about further efforts yet. > Except for his now extremely spartan looking house, he seems to live > normally in every other respect. He didn't seem to be suffering any ill > affects from being in the immediate proximity of the as yet un-cleaned > piano, nor did he seem at all worried when I pulled the action (amid the > usual bits of dust and such) right in his presence--he reached right in and > lifted a hammer or two to check out the dust on the rest rail. Go figure. > They've spent A LOT of money on this disruption to their home, and I'm > starting to have a queasy feeling about it possibly all being nonsense. Of > course, it might be that the piano itself simply isn't contaminated. I'm > starting to feel like a dog chasing its tail...... > Greg > > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 7:56 AM, David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net > > wrote: > >> Not intending to keep mold alive, but my last response to Greg detoured >> to his personal address. >> My frail ego desired to see it as part of the eternal record of our >> conversations here. >> >> At 03:15 PM 1/14/2013, Greg wrote: >> >> Seems like whatever he does in the end, it's going to involve a big leap >> of faith. >> >> >> Ah, the old leap of faith gambit. As per my last post, this transitional >> state has been going on for a while - since you first posted the issue. >> Has he determined, with any degree of scientific rigor, that he is still >> reacting to the presence of the mold or its secretions? As far as I can >> tell, he did not treat the piano, so if there *were* any spores present, >> they and their secretions would still be there. Is this his only allergic >> sensitivity? Does he need to take extraordinary precautions when he goes >> out? Does he go out? >> >> >> It would still be interesting to learn what possible remediation steps >> exist that wouldn't adversely affect the piano. >> >> David S >> >> >> At 03:15 PM 1/14/2013, Gregory J. Granoff wrote: >> >> David, >> At this point, he's aiming to proceed as far down the road with treatment >> as possible. Something he finally explained to me about the situation that >> wasn't really clear before is that it's possible to treat the "biologicals" >> as the living organisms get called (just exactly the right method with a >> piano is still to be determined); but the real problem is that he isn't >> allergic to the mold itself, but rather the chemical compound it secretes >> as a defense against other molds possibly getting a foothold on its >> territory. You can get rid of the mold, but the poisonous residue stays >> behind. But where is it exactly? If you don't even see evidence of mold, >> is the poison compound there? It's not "alive" of course, so getting rid >> of it is a very vague, indeterminate process that involves a lot of >> cleaning, but no sure outcome. Seems like whatever he does in the end, >> it's going to involve a big leap of faith. >> Greg Granoff >> Humboldt State University >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 5:26 AM, David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net> >> wrote: >> Greg - >> How is he coping during this period of strategizing? It seems like this >> becomes a de facto trial. >> James Schmit - can you identify some of those cutting edge techniques >> you referred to? >> >> David Skolnik >> Hastings on Hudson, NY >> >> >> At 03:25 PM 1/11/2013, you wrote: >> >> Wim, a follow up here, as I see my original to you reply didn't go to >> CAUT. This is a Cable grand, near 6'. The customer knows (we've had a >> conversation) it really isn't worth rebuilding completely, and so until he >> works through the nightmare of logistics that he may face if he decides to >> keep it and try to "treat" it instead, that sort of ends the conversation, >> I guess. >> Thanks for yours, and everyone's help and input! >> Greg >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:12 PM, <tnrwim at aol.com> wrote: Greg. Would you >> mind telling us the name of the piano? Is it worth it to completely >> rebuild, new finish, new strings, etc. new action? >> Wim >> Sent from my iPhone >> On Jan 10, 2013, at 3:06 PM, "Gregory J. Granoff" <Gregory.Granoff at humboldt.edu> >> wrote: >> >> I don't think you missed anything, but I think what I failed to make >> clear is that he really likes this piano--though it is a fairly indifferent >> and generic late 20's 5' 9-ish grand that had an action rebuild only a few >> years ago. Thus, though money is indeed not really the issue, there >> remained a desire to see if a proven route to decontaminating the piano was >> available that didn't involve rebuilding. My (and his) interest was in >> knowing if, specifically, a reliable method for doing this existed, and >> what it would be, and did anyone have experience with this. I am not under >> the impression that the piano itself is suspected to be the actual source >> of the problem, but rather being in the same environment, thoroughness of >> remediation demands that something be done with everything in the home that >> could be affected--whether actually needed or not. >> He will undoubtedly not decide what to do until some >> information/recommendation from me is forthcoming, though, again, if I >> say, "buy another piano, because that's the easiest route", (and that seems >> like it might be the emerging consensus) he's likely to consent, because, >> of course, that option was always there. But I agreed to find out what the >> CAUT community at large knew, and everyone's take on it was of value to me, >> whether they thought they were addressing the central issue or not. In >> fact, for me, sometimes misunderstandings can generate new views on the >> proceedings that shed light where not originally expected. >> >> I agree that knowing what it would cost to get a professional to assess >> and treat (if possible) the instrument would be of great interest. An >> ozone tent was mentioned, and I'm going to follow that up a bit out of >> curiosity and see what I can turn up. I'll let the list know if anything >> comes of it. >> He mentioned to me the idea of selling it to a friend who knows exactly >> what's going on, has been in his house a lot and has no symptoms, and wants >> a piano. A scenario like this could skirt the ethics issues you bring up >> quite easily, and might be the only recourse if the legal/ethical problems >> of trying to avoid outright destruction of the piano became too weighty. >> Greg >> >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:06 PM, David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net> >> wrote: Sorry if I'm missing something. If money is, as they say, 'no >> object', then let him get another piano, or another house, whatever. If >> money is 'an object', then the question is, what is the most efficacious >> way of determining if the piano is contributing to his problem? Either >> remove the piano, temporarily (he could rent something if need be), or wrap >> it. However, you say: >> >> I suspect he's decided that the piano will either be treated in some >> tried and proven way, or be rebuilt or replaced >> >> So if he's already decided what he wants to do, it becomes an issue of >> little further interest. It would be of interest to know how much it would >> cost to have a certified individual determine the piano's toxicity, and if >> any, how much it would cost to remediate (and how it would be done). For >> that matter, it would of more than passing interest to contemplate the >> ethics of disposing of such an instrument. Can you sell it without >> disclosing your reason? If it is contaminated, can you donate it? etc. >> It reminds me of my experience (which I've cited before) dealing with a >> piano that had been treated with (what turned out to be) Paris Green, a >> substance containing arsenic, which had been used, especially in the south, >> to control insects. Once officially identified (by village fire >> department), the legitimate (legal) recourse asserted itself. A company >> was brought in to inspect, and subsequently advised removing (and disposing >> of) the piano, a step which, frankly, had I continued to be involved in the >> process, I would have at the very least, challenged. I retain some degree >> of skepticism. >> My last word: whatever. >> David Skolnik >> >> >> >> >> >> At 02:26 PM 1/10/2013, you wrote: >> >> David, You're correct, there was no mention of water damage. The house >> is fine from that perspective, as far as anyone knows. As I said to James >> in my response to him, the issue is probably the Humboldt climate well >> known for dampness, especially along the coast where we are. He is a >> musician, records, gigs, and uses the piano frequently, though as he is >> more a wind player and guitarist, and associates are more likely to use the >> piano than he in actual rehearsals and so forth. All your suggestions >> are useful, but I suspect moving the piano to a different local in the >> house probably isn't going to fly, since I suspect he's decided that the >> piano will either be treated in some tried and proven way, or be rebuilt or >> replaced. No one has any idea whether the piano is even infected; they >> just want to cover all the bases in the most direct way possible. I'm >> getting the feeling--as others have suggested--that the simplest thing is >> to replace it, period. I'm going to check in with this guy very soon >> about what I'm learning here. >> I'm not familiar with the ozone tent Andrew speaks of. Any idea what it >> is/does? Andrew? >> Thanks very much for everyone's help! Greg >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:52 AM, David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net> >> wrote: Greg, James - Without getting into technical details beyond my >> immediate knowledge, the data seems somewhat incomplete. I may have missed >> something, but I don't understand the basis for James assumption that the >> piano suffered water damage. It would be interesting to know the suspected >> cause of the mold, i.e. a water leak, flooding, Humbolt climate? Does he >> use the piano? Can the piano be moved to a part of the house that he >> doesn't frequent, to see if that makes a difference? If his condition >> suddenly improves, that would narrow it down a bit. I would be wary of >> going immediately the off-site 'expert evaluation' route, partly for the >> initial expense (it can't be cheap, unless the wife does it herself or >> knows someone), and then question of what to do, based upon the assessment >> results. I suppose you could move it off-site to do a thorough cleaning >> (or take it out in the back on a sunny day - whenever that might be- and >> blow it out). >> It would be interesting to see (photo) how the house has been cleansed >> without eliminating all elements of comfort. David Skolnik >> At 11:32 AM 1/10/2013, you wrote: >> >> Greg, Of all the things that are be almost impossible to remove from >> a piano without rebuilding, mildew and mold are at the top of the list. It >> is more difficult then smoke and smoke odor There simply is not a way to >> clean it out without removing and replacing parts. You have a living >> organism that is not just sitting there, is is growing If I were in your >> place I wold first have the piano removed to a water damage restoration >> specialist and let is sit in an uncontaminated area for evaluation and then >> decide the next step from there. Most of the time you can see it but not >> always. Getting the input from some folks that deal with it on a regular >> basis is helpful. Yours James Schmitt On Jan 9, 2013, at 8:57 AM, >> Gregory J. Granoff wrote: >> >> David, I'm not sure what the story is on discovery there, but his wife >> is a long time professional allergist, and they have come quite a distance >> already in getting rid of all furniture and permeable surfaces in the house >> (carpeting, etc.), cleaning, painting, etc., with no turning back. I'm not >> going to say anything about finding what you tend to look for, if you know >> what I mean; but he did develop some pretty unpleasant symptoms when he's >> in his house--difficulty regulating body temp, feelings of mild atrophy in >> extremities, and mental cloudiness, among others, according to him. The >> question really is now: what do with the piano. He's aware--assuming that >> all this other stuff is correct-- that the piano might need to be replaced >> entirely, so it isn't a question of that being do-able if necessary. He >> just wants to know if that route is the only choice, and if it isn't, what >> are the realistic options for the existing piano? Thanks, Greg On Wed, >> Jan 9, 2013 at 5:08 AM, David Skolnik < davidskolnik at optonline.net> >> wrote: Greg - How was the original mold assessment made? How is the >> rest of his house being treated? Did a reliable expert locate the primary >> source, and reason for its presence? David Skolnik >> >> At 12:26 PM 1/8/2013, you wrote: >> >> Hello list, I'm looking for info regarding a customer who has been >> diagnosed with a serious allergy to poisonous mold spores that have >> apparently infected his house. He asked me whether there was any way to >> treat permeable surfaces such as felt, unfinished wood, etc. in pianos for >> the spores which can lodge there that didn't involve replacing everything. >> I have no experience with this issue at all. Anybody know? Thanks so >> much in advance for any advice and knowledge! Greg Granoff Humboldt >> State University No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - >> www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6016 - Release >> Date: 01/07/13 >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6021 - Release Date: 01/09/13 >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6023 - Release Date: 01/10/13 >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6029 - Release Date: 01/12/13 >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6032 - Release Date: 01/14/13 >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20130116/6a839721/attachment-0001.htm>
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