<HTML><HEAD> <META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type= content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial;= BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV align=left>Wim,</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>It's possible your problem is in the tuning= pin.  IMHO...You have to have an understanding of what= is going on with the string/tuning pin.  (And you may= already do all of the following things)  Making pitch= changes with your tuning hammer and then pounding 12 times to= see if it stays in tune is going to result in= unsatisfactory results.  When you pound (I prefer= key/hammer action mf) you should be using your tuning= hammer at the same time.  In other words, slight impact= pressure on the tuning hammer with some key/hammer action can= move the string and the pin the little amount you want. = Tiny changes in pin/string movement is what your= after.  Remember any kind of change in pitch needs= going over again.  When I'm fine tuning, I'm making 1= cent or less changes usually with just some impact= pressure increasing slightly in force with key/hammer= action.  If the slight impact pressure doesn't put it where= I want I will have to make a tiny change in the tuning pin which= will happen with a little more impact pressure.  The= idea that you must come above the pitch and pound it down= into tune aint going to make it in fine tuning.  If= that string is more than 1 cent, I will tune it several times,= tuning all strings in the unison as many times as it= takes.  I'm tuning unisons as I go and I use a SAT III= with minimal checks.  </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>David Ilvedson</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>----- Original message= ----------------------------------------><BR>From: <<A= href="mailto:Wimblees@aol.com">Wimblees@aol.com</A>><BR>To:= <<A= href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</A>><BR>Received:= Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:23:58 EDT<BR>Subject: Re: Why a string goes= out of tune.</DIV> <DIV align=left><BR>In a message dated 4/12/04 9:21:15 PM Central= Daylight Time, claviers@nxs.net writes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Jim: First you say:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"This means that no matter how hard you pound, you will NOT= equalize the tension between speaking lengths and string= tails.  You will break something before you can pound hard= enough to do that.  What you WILL do is cause it to move if= it is about ready to move<BR>anyway."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I asked, if you don't pound, (or play softly), will the= string move any way. So you answered:</DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;= BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>No, Wim, I am NOT= saying playing the note softly will equalize the= tension<BR>across the bridge.  You know that.  I said= pounding will cause it to move<BR>if it is about ready to move= anyway.  If the tension is not equalized<BR>across the= bridge, but the string is about ready to move, but you= play<BR>softly, nothing will happen.  But if you do pound,= or if the pianist<BR>pounds, then it will move, and the pitch of= the speaking length will change.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So does this mean I should pound to equalize the= string? If I don't pound, and the string doesn't equalize across= the bridge, then when the pianist plays hard and does move the= string, then the piano will be out of tune. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><FONT face=Arial> <DIV><BR>"Now consider the fact that you have a whole bunch of= strings whose tensions<BR>are only partially equalized across= the bridge, because there is no way you<BR>can completely= equalize it.  All it takes is for the relative humidity= to<BR>change, the bridge to swell or shrink, or the temperature= to change so that<BR>the difference in expansion coefficient= between wood and steel will cause<BR>the string to slip a= microscopic amount at the bridge, or someone to pound<BR>the= key; the string will move at the bridge, and your perfect unison= tuning<BR>will be spoiled.  I think this makes lots of= sense."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To me you're saying two different things. On the one hand= you're saying not to pound, because the string will move across= the bridge anyway. But you're also saying the string won't move= across the bridge until you (or the pianist) plays loud. So= what is a piano tuner to do? Tune softly, and let the strings= not move across the bridge, or play loud, and move those= strings. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other thing you're saying is that a little change in= temperature or humidity will cause a string to go out of tune. I= can accept that to some degree. I saw your demonstration of that= at one of the conventions. But you were taking a hair drier to a= string on a mini back. On the concert stage, most of the time a= piano is not going to be subjected to that kind of extreme= changes. I would think that having the string equalized= would prevent most microscopic differences. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now granted, pounding to equalize tension, and playing so= you can hear the note, are two different things. I never= said I listened to a pounding note as the final answer. All= I said is that I pound to set the string and the pin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes sense to me is that if I don't pound every= note, to get every string to equalize across the bridge, I'm= asking for trouble. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wim </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>