<HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2873" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="MARGIN: 4px 4px 1px; FONT: 10pt Tahoma"> <DIV><A href="http://www2.shopping.com/xDN-tools_and_hardware--hermes_abrasives~V-grid">http://www2.shopping.com/xDN-tools_and_hardware--hermes_abrasives~V-grid</A> </DIV> <DIV>finds them at Amazon....</DIV> <DIV> >>> caut-request@ptg.org 6/10/2006 10:31 AM >>> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Send caut mailing list submissions to     caut@ptg.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</A> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     caut-request@ptg.org You can reach the person managing the list at     caut-owner@ptg.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of caut digest..." Today's Topics:    1. Re: Piano Tuning Myths (Fred Sturm)    2. Re: various tool suppliers (David Ilvedson)    3. Re: Topping up the tank (Porritt, David)    4. Re: Topping up the tank (Jeff Tanner)    5. Re: Piano Tuning Myths (Keith Kopp) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:24:15 -0600 From: Fred Sturm <fssturm@unm.edu> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Piano Tuning Myths To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> Message-ID: <4A292A06-3D2B-4AD4-B09D-F850EBEF12AC@unm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jun 9, 2006, at 2:16 PM, Jeff Tanner wrote: >  Why else would anyone have been led to believe that a piano will  > remain in tune at least 6 months, or longer? > Hey, it's better than "You only need to tune it after it gets moved."  At least it gets tuned regularly. > > By far, the hardest question for me to answer is when that customer  > asks, "so, how often should my piano be tuned?" My best answer is "As often as it needs it." <G> > > Every answer will be wrong. > > Jeff > > P.S. The second hardest question to answer is "what time of year is  > best to have my piano tuned?"  Around  here, everyone is always  > waiting for the weather to settle.  It never does. > Amen. > Jeff Tanner, RPT > University of South Carolina > > > Regards, Fred Sturm University of New Mexico fssturm@unm.edu ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0700 From: "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [CAUT] various tool suppliers To: caut@ptg.org Message-ID: <0191789C$06090F121CDA$001002@David> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="US-ASCII" I was a strip filer before I went to the Yamaha seminar.   I am now a paddler only.   Yamaha provided us with a sheet of sandpaper from "Hermes"....80 grit for the paddle.   Max, Yamaha Master Tech, said his paddle was 4 years old...never changed the sandpaper!   The paddle is just a piece of thin wood...1 inch or so wide by 6 inches long.   No handle.   Held between index and middle finger lightly with thumb pressing down lightly.   We worked from the front side of the hammer up to the top, lightened up on the pressure over the top and then down the other side.   I am having success with Renner Blues even... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, California ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Fred Sturm" <fssturm@unm.edu> To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> Received: 6/9/2006 11:44:50 AM Subject: Re: [CAUT] various tool suppliers >On Jun 8, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Debra Feiger wrote: >> I'm trying to find vendors for a few items if anyone >> can help me find out who sells: >> >> magnetic let-off strips, >> good sharp scissors to cut felt, >mustache scissors, cosmetic section of drug store or whatever. Or go  >to your local fabric store and check out their selection. Or you can  >spend $100 and up at a gourmet knife and scissors emporium <G>. >> a tilter for upright pianos, >Schaff's is fine. I bought one for the U from them about 2 - 3 years  >ago. Don't know what else is available. >> the best quality bushing cloth/felt (is Schaff's as >> good as Renner's and Pianotec'?), >Probably quality is the same (probably both from Hainesworth (?sp?),  >as Charles House is gone). I buy from Pianotek as the selection is or  >has been better than anyone else's (they used to carry both Charles  >House and Hainesworth, in several thicknesses. They might still have  >some Charles House in stock. I use BU-6, 7, 8, 9. I find selection of  >thickness critical to a good job, so I want multiple thicknesses on  >hand to choose from. >> sandpaper (is 3M garnett the best and can you buy it >> already backed (for hammer filing)? >Garnet is the best natural material. There are several synthetics  >that work quite well. I find aluminum oxide quite workable for most  >purposes. To glue it to a paddle, use double-sided carpet tape (tip  >courtesy of Eric. I guess he forgot to tell you <g>). Me, I'm a strip  >sander, and use individual hammer sized strips for all my coarse  >hammer filing, backed with scotch tape for strength and smoothness.  >Wider strips to "shoe-shine" the crowns in fine grits. I find I can  >get better control that way, though it does take practice to get the  >needed skill. >>   Also Eric >> Schandal recommends C and not D weight. Comments? >I dunno. You'll have to ask him why. >> >> thanks everybody >> Debra >Regards, >Fred Sturm >University of New Mexico >fssturm@unm.edu ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:55:21 -0500 From: "Porritt, David" <dporritt@mail.smu.edu> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Topping up the tank To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> Message-ID:     <775EC5882A29A34DBC4F95D80DDF61FE0509BEE1@s31xe5.systems.smu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark: Thanks for your reply.  The word "Forced" was not a good choice in my original post.  "Makes available" would probably be better.  I just know that if I were in a more extreme climate where humidification were essential I would probably try to avoid the constant tank filling during the summer if possible.  Filling the tanks, changing the pads, etc. is a lot of work!  We have a couple of rooms where excess humidity is sometimes a problem but for the most part our building stays quite good.  I do worry more about high humidity than low.  Most of our grand pianos are Steinways and since they dry their panels so much I've always thought they did well in the dryness.  When humidity is high the boards tend to develop compression ridges which then crack the next time the humidity goes down.  I've always thought that if we keep them on the drier side, they don't develop as many problems.  We did get down to 11-degrees (F) once this year and that's pretty rare but the temperature was back up long before our building had a chance to react in any way.  I know that 11-degrees would be a treat for you in January!  I do think someone should do more research on the idea of having the system "off" when the relative humidity is in the correct zone.  I also realize that would probably demand humidistats with much higher accuracy than what is currently available. dave David M. Porritt dporritt@smu.edu ________________________________ From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<A href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]</A> On Behalf Of Mark Cramer Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 2:16 PM To: College and University Technicians Subject: Re: [CAUT] Topping up the tank Hi Dave, you raise a good point, I'm no authority, but will share what I think I know about overlapping thresholds, then hope someone in the know will set us both straight. 1.) This may be a stretch, but I've been told a proven method to regulate the temperature of blood resource in a blood bank, is to cycle slightly warmer and cooler air through the storage unit, overlapping in the critical temperature range. Why they can't simply dial in a thermostat at the temperature they want, and a get stable temperature... I don't know, I'm not an engineer. 2.) Closer to home; over winter, I finally completed the heating/cooling system (ductwork, furnace, etc.) at our cottage. Tom K., our mechanical plant supervisor suggested the most efficient operation (we heat it all winter) is having the furnace-fan run at low-speed continually, with the furnace actively cycling in warm air in as required, rather have everything shut off until it gets cold, then try heat it all up again. Make's sense, and it works! Granted Dave, neither of us are enthalpy control experts (I sure ain't), but I hope we realize piano climate systems don't "force" humidity in or out, that should be fairly obvious. You might find a conversation I had with Bill Spurlock about water-damaged pianos helpful: Bill explained that warming and circulating air adjacent to moist wood creates a gradient, or in simple terms makes the air a more inviting destination for the moisture, than the wood is. This gradient invites the moisture to change directions, and move towards the more welcoming environment. Likewise, to restore equilibrium moisture content to wood, simply provide moist air in the vicinity... no "forcing" required. If the wood is dry it will accept moisture, if it isn't, it won't.  By the way the most satisfying explanation I've ever encountered on this subject was the class Roger Wheelock gave at the Dallas Convention. Roger of course is a scientist, and Bill I believe, has an engineering background. Isn't it nice the PTG has such good resources, so we don't have to "guess" about this stuff? As for tempering the climate around pianos, I think all we're really trying to do Dave, is maintain the equilibrium moisture content in the wood (soundboard), to keep the piano at pitch and prevent damage.  And it seems we can do this quite successfully, using the products you mention, to maintain a compatible range of relative humidity in the air. An "Inconvenient Truth" as you and I both know, is if relative humidity isn't stable, the moisture content of the wood will not be stable ("Nature's Law," not ours), and if the wood isn't stable, neither is the tuning, no matter the manufacturer, the day of the week, where you live, who tuned it, or which foot they stood on.  (I used to think piano owners/sales persons were the biggest perpetrators of "piano-tuning myths," but you might be surprised at the fanciful notions some of "us" have cultivated... myself included!? Yipes! ;>) Anyhow, people who understand wood, know "the rules," and hopefully we do too, since pianos are made of wood. For what we don't know, it's fortunate to have a wealth of knowledge and experience in the technology and manufacturing fields we can rely on. best regards, Mark Cramer, Brandon University    PS Regarding things that "do" work: Last year ago I sent a post about fitting a soundboard cover to a KG-3c, in a church that had 30-cent seasonal pitch swings, despite having a Dampp-Chaser with one 50w and two 25w dehumidifiers. I tuned the same piano this morning, and was pleased to find the tenor just 6 cents sharp, and the rest of the piano right on the button!             That's the one thing (or one of the things) that I don't get about these systems.  I'm fortunate that our climate here is sufficiently benign that we don't have any systems installed.  As the system is currently designed, it forces humidity into the piano - even when the ambient humidity is high - and then forces it out.  To me it would make more sense to have the humidifier come on at say 35% and the dehumidifier to come on at 50% (45%??) but in between those it would leave the poor piano alone!  Or in the summer if your humidity is high, just disconnect the humidifier and the opposite in the winter.  What good is it to continually humidify then dehumidify the piano probably several times a day? dave David M. Porritt dporritt@smu.edu     -----Original Message-----     From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<A href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]On">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]On</A> Behalf Of Porritt, David     Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:19 AM     To: College and University Technicians     Subject: Re: [CAUT] Topping up the tank     Jeff Tanner wrote:         ... and even in these high humidity summers the tanks need filling more often than every two weeks -- more like a week to 10 days.         That's the one thing (or one of the things) that I don't get about these systems.  I'm fortunate that our climate here is sufficiently benign that we don't have any systems installed.  As the system is currently designed, it forces humidity into the piano - even when the ambient humidity is high - and then forces it out.  To me it would make more sense to have the humidifier come on at say 35% and the dehumidifier to come on at 50% (45%??) but in between those it would leave the poor piano alone!  Or in the summer if your humidity is high, just disconnect the humidifier and the opposite in the winter.  What good is it to continually humidify then dehumidify the piano probably several times a day?         dave         David M. Porritt     dporritt@smu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20060610/ef92ab4b/attachment-0001.html">https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20060610/ef92ab4b/attachment-0001.html</A> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:47:09 -0400 From: Jeff Tanner <jtanner@mozart.sc.edu> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Topping up the tank To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> Message-ID: <CEC8F0E1-003D-44DC-BD38-C8B4CCDB860B@mozart.sc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" On Jun 10, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Porritt, David wrote: > I do think someone should do more research on the idea of having  > the system ?off? when the relative humidity is in the correct  > zone.  I also realize that would probably demand humidistats with  > much higher accuracy than what is currently available. > > > > dave Probably more complicated and more expensive.  The accuracy of these  is pretty good.  They are tested for accuracy to pretty tight  tolerances. I would think a humidistat would have to have a more complicated  series of moisture activated switches to be able to operate like you  are describing. But, I'm not the engineer. Jeff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20060610/ef0897ce/attachment-0001.html">https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20060610/ef0897ce/attachment-0001.html</A> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:18:07 -0600 From: "Keith Kopp" <keith_kopp@byu.edu> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Piano Tuning Myths To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> Message-ID:     <8569568B50455C438132CDDE593D2FDD0114C695@klondike.exch.ad.byu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When customers ask me how soon will the piano go out of tune I ask them how soon does your car start to run out of gas when you pull out of the service station. How soon should you tune it your piano, how soon should you gas your car? Have fun with that one. Keith Kopp B.Y.U ________________________________ From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<A href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]</A> On Behalf Of Jeff Tanner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 2:17 PM To: College and University Technicians Subject: [CAUT] Piano Tuning Myths On Jun 9, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Mark Cramer wrote: (I used to think piano owners/sales persons were the biggest perpetrators of "piano-tuning myths," but you might be surprised at the fanciful notions some of "us" have cultivated... myself included!? Yipes! ;>) Of course!  It makes more sense that the myths we fight today were creations of our own predecessors in the name of competition.  Why else would anyone have been led to believe that a piano will remain in tune at least 6 months, or longer? And, yet, today, wise technicians, like yourself, understand that, because of these myths, you can't tell customers what the real truths are, lest you open the door for your customer to question your competence and/or business ethics.  Because the myths are more believable than the truth. By far, the hardest question for me to answer is when that customer asks, "so, how often should my piano be tuned?"  Every answer will be wrong. Jeff P.S. The second hardest question to answer is "what time of year is best to have my piano tuned?"  Around  here, everyone is always waiting for the weather to settle.  It never does. Jeff Tanner, RPT University of South Carolina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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