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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personally I stick to the Accu-Tuner III using Fred
procedure for the A factor and then store the tuning on a page in memory using
the defaults 8.0 for F and 6.0 for C. Everything else I calculate on the fly
with the DOB Calculator,e.g., I no longer need many pages in memory as each
tuning is custom and accurate. This is the most felxible use of the Accu-Tuner
III and since the battery almost never runs out why would anyone use anything
else? As part of my habit I also check unisons by ear to the 3rd partial. This
gives me as good a tuning as I can get aurally and is replicatible to
boot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> BTW forget parainharmonicity since it doesn't
exist.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dporritt@mail.smu.edu href="mailto:dporritt@mail.smu.edu">Porritt,
David</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org
href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 22, 2007 6:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CAUT] Measuring FAC (was
Re: Re. Link to Young Paper)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Fred:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I no longer have an SAT. I’ve found TuneLab to
be easier to measure as it’s semi-automatic. It needs 4 notes I use
6. It does a good job. Still, I tune from F3 – C8 checking things
along the way. When I tune from E3 – A0 I turn off TuneLab when I get to
the wrapped strings. I’m much more interested in smooth octaves than
compliance to a particular octave size (6:3, 8:4 whatever) or smooth
progression of beat rates. It also helps battery
life!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">David M. Porritt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:dporritt@smu.edu">dporritt@smu.edu</A></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Fred Sturm<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 22, 2007 4:55
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> caut<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [CAUT] Measuring FAC (was Re:
Re. Link to Young Paper)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">On 1/19/07 8:30 PM, "Jim Busby"
<jim_busby@byu.edu> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi
Fred,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At a convention
someone mentioned this as “the” way one should take the FAC measurements.
Wasn’t this in the journal once too? I’m still unclear as to the “step by
step” instructions. (1, 2, 3…) For the gadget impaired, (me) would you give
those instructions???<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
Busby</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Hi
Jim,<BR> I am not aware of anyone teaching this
particular method. I have heard of a couple of different variants, at least
one of which was published in the Journal, but they were substantially
different and for different purposes.<BR> Here are step
by step instructions:<BR>1) Turn on SAT, press tune button. You are at A4, 0.0
cents. Tune the string and stop the lights. (Side effect: WOW! You have tuned
a string to the pitch where you want to leave it).<BR>2) Octave up to A6. Play
A4 holding the measure button to stop the lights (or do cents up, whichever
you prefer, and whichever produces more accuracy – maybe a combination).<BR>3)
Take that number and multiply it by 0.8. (Eg, 10.0 x 0.8 = 8.0). Using the
cents down button, move the display number to the resulting number (Eg, from
10.0 to 8.0). Enter that number (Shift/Stretch) and the display will now move
to C6, 0.0 cents.<BR> (For ease in doing this in my
head, I prefer to think of it as reducing the number by 1/5. Divide the number
by 5 and subtract that from the total. And, hoping not to confuse the issue,
an additional mathematical trick to accomplish this is to multiply by 2 and
then divide by 10. So, eg, 11.7 x 2 = 23.4 / 10 = 2.3. 11.7 – 2.3 = 9.4. If
this seems like gibberish, ignore it. If it makes sense, use it.).<BR><BR>4)
Now you are on C6 at 0.0. Tune C6 to stop the lights. <BR>5) Octave up to C8.
Measure. I find it helpful to do cents up with the cents up button to about 30
cents, then use the measure button (makes it easier for the SAT to find the
pitch). <BR>6) Take this result and divide it by 5. (Eg, 35.0 / 5 = 7.0).
Octave down to C7. Cents down to the resulting number. Enter that number
(shift/stretch). The display moves to F5, 0.0 cents.<BR><BR>7) Do F as usual.
<BR> But I’ll comment a little on the F number, which,
it seems to me, is the weakest link in the FAC system. I find that it doesn’t
really serve well for pianos that have high inharmonicity for F3. The major
effect of a high F number is seen in the bass, from A0 to B2, and high F
numbers will produce octaves that are too wide (IMO), especially for those
spinets to studios which have the highest numbers.
<BR> And, of course, it all depends whether F3 is wound
or plain wire. The scaling of a <st1:City w:st="on">Hamilton</st1:City> is
very close to that of an Acrosonic, except the <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Hamilton</st1:place></st1:City> has a plain F3 while Acrosonic has a
wound F3. So the Acrosonic’s F number is a lot lower. There are lots of other
similar examples.<BR> Bottom line, I reduce high F
numbers, usually to a nominal 10.0<BR><BR>8) “Across the break.” As long as
I’ve gone into this much detail, I’ll mention a bit about tuning across the
break, meaning in pianos with a big jump in inharmonicity between plain and
wound strings. Sanderson provides an article or two (or they did ten years
ago) suggesting the use of two tuning pages to smooth the tuning across the
break. One tuning uses the measured F number, the other uses a lower number
derived by measuring the top wound string, as I recall. The instructions are
to use the page with the higher F number for the plain wires, the lower number
for the wound strings. This does make for better octaves in the tenor and bass
(as I described above, in advocating for a lower F number), but it does
nothing to smooth the transition across the break, defined as making the M3,
M6, M10 beat rates progress more evenly. In fact, the two tuning pages will
have numbers that are identical in the area across the break (or, at most,
varying by 0.1 to 0.2 cents, basically insignificant).
<BR> Bottom line, I’d advise not bothering. If you want
to smooth the break, I can give you a way to do it with a SAT. I’m not
convinced anyone but a tuner would notice. People notice the break, but not
because the M3s don’t progress or have a little jog in beat rate. It’s because
the inharmonicity changes, so the sound of the notes themselves, and
especially the sound of octaves and 5ths changes. And there is nothing we can
do about it in tuning the piano. The partial ladders line up differently, and
they are going to no matter what. Better to “let the numbers fall where they
may” and focus instead on unisons in that area, IMO.<BR><BR>I hope this is
helpful.<BR>Regards,<BR>Fred Sturm<BR><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">New
Mexico</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Fred Sturm<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 19, 2007 4:47
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> caut<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [CAUT] Re. Link to Young
Paper<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR>On 1/19/07 3:29 PM, "David Brown"
<David.C.Brown.2@asu.edu> wrote:<BR><BR>Dear Fred-<BR><BR>I wonder if
you could expand on this a bit more. I attempted to calculate FAC this way
after reading your post but I must have done something wrong. The difference
between the first and fourth partial of A4 seemed to yield a wider octave (
larger A number, to be expected I suppose) than the normal reading, but
the difference between the first and fourth partial of C 6 yielded numbers
well into the 20’s or 30’s! I tried the the difference between the first and
second partial of C7 as well and still no real usable numbers for me. There
must be a way to enlighten me! <BR><BR><BR>Hope all is well in <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New
Mexico</st1:place></st1:State>.<BR><BR>Regards-<BR><BR>David<BR><BR><BR>Hi
David,<BR> The A4/A6 difference needs to be multiplied
by 0.8, to factor out the difference between 1st and 2nd partial and leave the
difference between 2nd and 4th partial. The C6/C8 difference needs to be
multiplied by 0.2 to factor out the difference between 2nd and 4th partial and
leave the difference between 1st and 2nd partial. The difference between 1st
and second partial is 1/4 the difference between 2nd and 4th partial (it’s a
logarithmic scale, based on a square of the difference between partial
numbers, kind of).<BR> So, if you read A4/A6 as 10
(zero A4 and read its 4th partial at A6 as plus 10 cents), you enter 8 as the
A number. When you have calculated the tuning, the number for A4 (the tuning
offset, tuning it’s 4th partial) will be 10. For C6/C8, if the number is 35
(C6 zeroed, its 4th partial at C8 read as plus 35 cents), you enter 7.
(Obviously when you enter the number, you have to go to the right note name
and octave, and scroll cents up or down).<BR> Is this
clearer? <BR> (BTW, David is referring, I believe, to
some posts I sent to pianotech around ten years ago, when I was coming to
terms with my SAT).<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Fred Sturm<BR><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of
<st1:PlaceName w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>
<BR><BR> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
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