<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Fred:<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I agree, but can you characterize/describe how the individual octaves turn out when you choose to emphasize the wider intervals? How do the 2:1 octaves beat in the tenor and upper midrange in order for you to get the expansion you want in the higher octaves? Are your fifths in the midrange pure? Wider than pure? How much faster are the tenths when compared with the thirds? <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I guess I'm saying that you can't have it both ways, and I'm interested in how you would describe what your compromises and tuning choices do to the octaves in the middle of the piano. For example, let's take the B4. I assume that you like to hear the G3-B4 tenth beating faster than the G3-B3 third. How much faster, one beat, two, more? Would the G3-B4 tenth beat at the same speed as the A3-C#4 third? How fast will you allow fourths to beat just above the temperament?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>For arguments sake let's assume this is a concert grand. I think we'd agree that compromises would be different in an upright or small grand. Since concert grands are the instruments that provide the best opportunity to match our theoretical ideas with a real world instrument, I'd like to get your practical description for concert grand octaves.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The reason this topic has been of interest to me for years is this: We technicians claim that the "artistry" of tuning is a matter of personal choice. Some people choose wider octaves than others. On some level I agree. But I also believe that the degree of choice is a lot narrower than has been described to me over the years. In other words a good concert tuning doesn't have as much lattitude for choosing as we've come to believe. Continuing to promote this long held belief creates confusion, IMHO. After all, there are certain laws of physics at work here. We wouldn't want to violate the laws of physics.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Richard West </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Fred Sturm wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><DIV>On Jan 22, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Porritt, David wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; ">Fred:</SPAN><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; ">I no longer have an SAT. I’ve found TuneLab to be easier to measure as it’s semi-automatic. It needs 4 notes I use 6. It does a good job. Still, I tune from F3 – C8 checking things along the way. When I tune from E3 – A0 I turn off TuneLab when I get to the wrapped strings. I’m much more interested in smooth octaves than compliance to a particular octave size (6:3, 8:4 whatever) or smooth progression of beat rates. It also helps battery life!</SPAN><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; ">dave</SPAN><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 13.3333px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 13.3333px; ">David M. Porritt</SPAN></SPAN></FONT><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 13.3333px; "><A href="mailto:dporritt@smu.edu"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255); font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 13.3333px; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; ">dporritt@smu.edu</SPAN></A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>Hi Dave,<BR><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I still have my SAT as backup, but use RCT. It fits my personality better <g>.</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>As to octaves, I think we tend to give too much emphasis to the sound of the individual octave, rather than focusing on the sound of the whole piano. I find that emphasizing wider intervals, like 12ths, 19ths, and double/triple octaves, gives an overall sound I prefer. The individual octaves are sized to fit within the larger intervals.<BR><DIV><DIV>Regards,</DIV><DIV>Fred Sturm</DIV><DIV>University of New Mexico</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:fssturm@unm.edu">fssturm@unm.edu</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>