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<DIV>Barbara, I would urge you on no account to recommend Sreinway 1098's; they
are simply bad pianos. Back in 1970 the university I worked for underwent rapid
expansion of their faculty of music and purchased a number of these, principally
for the offices of non performance professors, such as musicologists, composers,
and historians, whose demands for a piano were fairly low, and in fact were not
necessarily pianists at all. Aside from poor tone and excessive false
beats, and generally mediocre workmanship the touch quality was slow and
stodgy feeling. But far more serious was that EVERY ONE of them had the pinblock
in the bass separate.Other technicians I knew had similar experiences
Admittedly, I am sure that this design flaw has been corrected in more recent
years. But the few I have seen since then have been less than impressive. One
had action geometry problems which resulted in sticking keys, despite all the
centers and key bushings being free. I was able to correct this, but why
did it get out of the factory like this in the first place?And I don't know if
they still do this, but the fallboards were held in by screws from underneath
the keybeds, which simply defies commonsense. I have seen the recent K's, and
find them anything but impressive. They are not really reproductions of the old
K's, which were truly noble instruments (despte their quirky actions) so
much as an interpretation of them. My feeling about Steinways is that their
hearts are really not in it where uprights are concerned. I have attended many
of their classes, and cannot recollect one mention of uprights. On one occasion
I heard Franz Mohr say he hated them. I know of one horror story of a K
which had sticking key problems, perhaps similar to the one I had worked on, but
the dealer technicians had been unable to correct them. The whole situation
escalated out of hand and ultimately resulted in the customer being without a
piano and still owing the bank $8000. I feel both parties handled things badly
of course. The customer is so angry he has circulated the whole story on the
Internet, and says he will do anything he can to hurt Steinway. This is very
sad. When it comes to choosing practise room pianos, I would very strongly
consider Kawais. I have worked on some which were from ten to thirty years old,
and found them in near mint condition. These had ABS actions, now superseded by
carbon fibre which are even more reliable. I love wooden actions, but honesty
compels me to acknowledge the superior durability and stability of the Kawai
actions.Should the piano endure, it is obvious that this is where the future
lies.If pure beauty of tone is more important, I would consider some of the fine
German makers, especially Bluthner, Pfeiffer, Sauter, Seiler, Ibach ,
Steingraber, Fuerich, Schimmel and others.I have not seen recent examples of
Bechstein uprights, only grands, or Hamburg Steinway uprights so can have no
opinion on them.-On the whole, I think that with few exceptions most pianomakers
are not interested in developing the upright, which actually has more potential
as a musical instrument than appears to be recognized. For instance, Edwin Good
is quite properly critical of the somewhat inferior repetition of the upright
action, but recognizs Del and Darrell Fandrich's designs and makes the
observation that it remains to be seen if the Fandrich action will become
generally accepted. But it goes much farther; we know that the only valid middle
pedal is the sostenuto, yet there are a minority of uprights with this
despite a perfectly reliable design. Instead we have in general, three useless
possibilities for the middle pedal, viz; the bass damper lift, duplicating the
regular soft pedal, and the so-called 'practice rail'. The latter was likened by
Tobias Matthay, a world renowned music educator, to a 'dog trying to bark with
its head in a sack'. If it is used much, it wears through quickly, and if
it doesn't, which is more often than not, it is worthless. I believe it to
be a vestigial remnant of the supernumary pedal effects from the late 18th.
Century Viennise pianos and has no legitimate place in a piano. If iit did, then
it should be in grands too. Further, the regular soft pedal in an upright merely
messes up the touch quality with an excess of lost motion. A Japanese company,
Toyo successfully made uprights (called the Apollo piano) with una corda they
termed the Slide Shift System. I have also seen this (rarely) on a few old
German uprights. To achieve this , the dampers would need to be mounted
separately from the rest of the action, which in turn would have to be fastened
to the keyframe, which would be installed like that in a grand.This would also
be a boon to us, as the dampers would be much more accessible for maintenance
and repair.Other attempts to improve repetition have been made, in fact fairly
successfully, variants of spring and loops for instance, and the old Mason and
Hamlin screw stringers had a leaf spring riveted to the front of the jacks which
engaged against a felt block on the inside of the catcher. And to prove I have
lost my reason, dare I put in a word for the much maligned "birdcage'?I am not
for a moment suggesting these should be revived, but the term is insulting. They
were the true forerunners of the modern upright action and are entitled to some
respect. The proper mane is 'overdamper actions'. In fact, they are simple and
in the right climatic conditions, very reliable. The touch quality can be very
clean; in my younger days many years ago, running round London (UK)
doing five tunings daily, I might tune four and then an 'underdamper'. This,
with its three springs instead of one as in the overdampers would feel springy
and rubbery in comparison. The Bluthner piano company clung to the overdamper
design long after most makers had abandoned it, perhaps for these very reasons,
and their uprights were magnificant by any criteria. It is not true that
overdampers are more difficult to tune. One simply has to adopt suitable muting
techniques. Their besetting problem is adapting to our climatic conditions and
the fact that only the best built ones damped efficiently.But I woul like to own
one of those Bluthners. Incidentally, they had hammer and wippen flanges made of
brass with adjustble centerpin bushings. These were blatantly copied from the
earlier Erard grands, but were beautifully machined. They looked like a wood
flange, only thinner, and were slit up to the bushing hole. A tightening screw
held the two parts together. I believe the hammer flanges on the large American
square pianos were slit the same way. Well anyway, these are some of the
possibilities which could do much for the upright, if the will existed to do so.
Realistically, I am not hopeful, the money angle is undeniable. I could go on
and on, but have tried everyone's patince enough, I am sure.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My best to all, Ted Sambell</DIV>
<DIV>- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tune4@earthlink.net href="mailto:tune4@earthlink.net">Paul Chick
(Earthlink)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org
href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">'College and University Technicians'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:58
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CAUT] New Upright
Pianos</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Re:
[CAUT] New Upright Pianos</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Feb 10, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Barbara Richmond
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Greetings all:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">While we're on the subject, a friend asked me to
compare Yamaha U-3s with Steinway URs.<SPAN class=apple-converted-space>
</SPAN>Uh, I don't even know what a Steinway UR is, just that I usually try to
avoid Steinway uprights in general (but maybe they've improved
lately!).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I cut my teeth on Steinway 45s (or 1098s or whatever
they are). Once you learn how to work with them, or at least accept them,
they're much easier to appreciate. But avoiding them simply because you'd
rather tune a Yamaha because it's easier isn't giving the Steinway much of a
chance out of the starting gate. And don't expect it to be like tuning a
Yamaha or a Kawai, or a <st1:City w:st="on">Boston</st1:City> or a Walter, or
a <st1:place w:st="on">Baldwin</st1:place>, because any of those, it isn't.
You have to accept the instrument for what it is and work with it. Yes.
Steinway verticals can be aggravating to tune. Some, more so than others, and
especially when they're new. But once you put that front board back on, take
off your technician's hat and put on your musician's hat, it is a much
different story. All that noise somehow turns into a reliable, very stable,
and pretty decent sounding musical
instrument.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And I'm sorry, what David Porritt wrote, quoting Ron
N, is just completely off base. The people who own 1098s love them. It doesn't
matter why. They just do. And those people tend to find Yamaha verticals leave
much to be desired. I especially don't get the big hoopla over the U3. It is
very creamy. In fact, all cream. No coffee. No tea. No peaches. No cookies.
Just... ...plain... ...cream.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The argument against the Yamahas (given by the
Steinway dealer) is the Steinways will last a lot longer. These pianos would
be used in a university, but I'm not sure if they are for practice rooms or
studios.<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Anyway, I think it's hard to
beat Yamaha in consistency and I wonder (and what I would be concerned about
is) what the condition the Steinway hammers are in regarding lacquering--and
then there are those center pin
bushings...<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I can't in good conscience responsibly agree with much
of anything that has been said on this thread. When I look at the P2s and
P202s in my client base and compare them to the 1098/45s from the same time
and even years older, there is no way I could ever come to a sober conclusion
that the Steinway doesn't hold up better over time than the Yamaha. The same
would have to be said for G1's, G2s, G3s, and C3's versus Steinway S, M and L,
even with teflon. Sure, the atoms will all still be there years from now on
both pianos, but give me a practice room beaten 40 year old 1098 over a P2
that's been used a couple hours a week in a church any
day.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Folks, we're talking about mass produced pianos built
for the lower priced market by a company accustomed to its customers throwing
pianos away after 25 or 30 years, versus artist grade instruments built with
superior materials, and built to be rebuilt again and again by a company that
has been building pianos for world class artists since 1854.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Steinway marketing myth my behind. I don't see people
lining up to pay 5 times the original selling price for 35-40 (or 80 to 100)
year old Yamaha pianos and then investing more money to get us to rebuild
them. And I definitely don't see how that can be blamed on Steinway's
marketing department. Yamaha's main market niche is for disposable pianos, and
they are priced accordingly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I have nothing against the Yamaha product or the
company. But we're not talking about apples and apples here. If we were
talking about Yamaha's artist series instruments, you might have a good
debate. But Yamaha has shot itself in the foot for not marketing them more
diligently. Or perhaps it can't sell them. For Yamaha to make a piano in
Steinway's quality range, they have to charge 30%-40% more. Unless, of course,
you're looking at a used one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You've actually got to hand it to Steinway. The
Steinway factory is located in one of the most expensive cities in the world,
with one of the highest costs of living anywhere. And despite labor unions,
and difficult hazardous materials restrictions, they manage to build a world
class piano which sells for a lower cost than any of the Asians can do it. And
it has survived the American economy for over 150 years. That is no easy feat
considering it survived a civil war, two world wars and a dozen or more year
long economic depression that wiped out almost every American piano
manufacturer. I'm tired of hearing them berated the way they
are.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Our customers like Steinway. Performing artists like
Steinway. Our university faculties prefer Steinway. Steinway doesn't have to
loan their pianos for free for a year to get universities to use them, and
they don't have to pay artists for endorsements. This is not Steinway
marketing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I really don't see how anyone could come to any
different conclusion, unless that someone truly can't appreciate the
difference. Then, I suppose, it doesn't
matter.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Jeff Tanner,
RPT<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on"><FONT
face=Helvetica color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">University</SPAN></FONT></st1:PlaceType><FONT
face=Helvetica color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"> of
<st1:PlaceName w:st="on">South
Carolina</st1:PlaceName></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT face=Helvetica
color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=navy size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Thanks for your
comments, Jeff. I tune and tech for a local dealer that carries
Steinway, a line of nice Japanese pianos, and a price point Chinese
product. 2%-the Steinway inventory-creates as much attention as the
98%. The attention is not the advertising, prep work, etc. It is
the awe of the consumer walking into the store and up to a world class
instrument whose name does not include “piano.” Just say
“Steinway” to anyone in music. They know it’s a piano.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Paul
C<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>