<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Jim:<DIV> </DIV><DIV>Let me think on this a little and then I'll get back to you in a few days.<DIV> </DIV><DIV>Richard</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> <DIV><DIV>On Oct 16, 2007, at 6:58 PM, Jim Busby wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceType"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceName"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"><DIV class="Section1">Richard,<O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></O:P><O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> </O:P>I’m helping develop the curriculum and agree with all your points below, but could you explain/elaborate on #2 below “CAUT classes/materials need to be experience based”?<O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></O:P><O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> </O:P>Thanks.<O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></O:P><O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> </O:P>Jim Busby<O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></O:P><O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> </O:P><O:P style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "> </O:P><DIV><DIV class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "><HR size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></DIV>From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<A href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</A>] On Behalf Of <ST1:PERSONNAME w:st="on"><A href="mailto:rwest1@unl.edu">rwest1@unl.edu</A></ST1:PERSONNAME> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:44 AM To: <ST1:PERSONNAME w:st="on">College and University Technicians</ST1:PERSONNAME> Subject: Re: [CAUT] CAUT Endorsement (was Re: Job Opening, <ST1:PLACETYPE w:st="on">U.</ST1:PLACETYPE> of <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">Michigan</ST1:PLACENAME>,<ST1:CITY w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Ann Arbor</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY>)<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P>I would like to weight in with a few thoughts.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV>1. Education--CAUT has been doing well in recent years to develop classes and I believe that should be the highest priority, not only classes at the convention, but classes at every regional seminar and at local institutions. The classes should become more or less standardized and repeated annually. What CAUT should be asking is: What core knowledge can be taught across the country, not just at the annual convention. Nationwide distribution/availabiltiy should be paramount since many technicians will not be able to attend the convention annually or even regularly.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV>2. Experience--How does anyone get the experience to do advanced work? Unfortunately most of that comes from seat-of-the-pants, in-the-field work. When I started at the <ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:PLACETYPE w:st="on">University</ST1:PLACETYPE> of <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">Nebraska</ST1:PLACENAME></ST1:PLACE>, I had been a piano technician for only 3 years with practically no experience in voicing, and no knowledge of harpsichords or other historical keyboards. I learned on the job. That first 5 years was hell. The 25 years after that were great. CAUT classes/materials need to be experience based. We already have books that provide general knowledge.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV>3. The Guidelines--One goal of the Guidelines was to inform administrators about what the job includes so that they would appreciate the intricacies of the job and the pay scale would rise. This hasn't really happened; our document is seen as self serving. Therefore the main value of the document is to inform technicians about what they're getting into when they apply for university jobs. CAUT education needs to continue to inform all technicians about the nature of university work so that when the interview comes around, they'll be able to differentiate what we do from what all other staff people do. You can't expect a higher pay scale when your immediate supervisor may be a staff person that isn't making as much as what you're asking. Administrators don't see us as any different than a stage manager, administrative assistant, or, yes, a specialized custodian. Until that perception changes, or until applicants refuse jobs that don't pay wages that are competitive with private concert work, then university techs will continue to be underpaid.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV>4. Testing--Until RPT is an accepted nationwide standard, I would put testing at a low priority. If testing is the current priority, the cart is being put in front of the horse. The problems we have with RPT testing are IMHO greater for a CAUT standard. The test would have to provide a better way to address testing problems like nationwide availability, qualified and experience examiners, testing that is fair and objective (using ETD's when ETD's can be problematic as repeatably accurate), length of time to give the test, using volunteers vs developing paid examiners, etc. A complete tuning, for example, sounds good as a goal for a testing standard, but implementing that seems to hark back to the good ole boy days. <O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV>Richard West, retired (more or less)<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P><DIV><DIV>On Oct 12, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV> <O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P><DIV><DIV>On Oct 12, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Richard Brekne wrote:<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV> <O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P><DIV>Just a thought on the tuning test idea. The present RPT test is to my mind of thinking absurdly time consuming to set up and execute. Nor do I believe it should be necessary to have it such. A tuning standard can be easily defined in terms of what decided upon sets of coincident partials behave like when tuned. As a banal example, one could simple ask the examinee to execute a bass tuning from say D3 downwards in terms of exact 6:3 types. This is extremely easy to measure afterwards and requires no prior set up... outside of a reasonably detuned instrument. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this principle could be applied to encompass a real tuning that is quite acceptable in real life terms. One added benefit of this approach would be that the examinee would know ahead of time exactly what is expected of him/her. This is far from always the case in the present system. I would think it would be nonproblematic to extend this approach to a very demanding test.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV style="min-height: 14px"><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV>Cheers<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV>RicB<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV></DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P><DIV>Hi Ric,<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV> This is, in fact, very close to the current concept for a caut tuning test. We analyze a sequence of coincident partials for consistency. It could, of course, be 6:3 octaves as you mention. And there are many other possibilities as well. Our initial plan is to look at double and triple octaves, the 4:1 and 8:1 partial matches, and see how evenly they progress. If something is out of kilter, it should show up pretty clearly.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV> But we don't, in this early draft version, plan to ask the examinee to do anything but tune "your best concert tuning," explaining that we will look particularly for crystal clear and rock solid unisons, and for evenness of stretch in the outer octaves. IOW, no artificial constraints, just do what you normally do in that circumstance.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV> I think the requirement that all unisons be within 0.5 cents tolerance after pounding is pretty demanding, though well within what I hope most of us are producing on a day to day basis. Beta testing will reveal whether or not this is so, and whether we might need to fudge a little to, say, 0.6 or something, and possibly more in high treble where ETD resolution can be a problem.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV> How the analysis of partial matches will work: well, it is at least an intriguing concept, and seems worth exploring. On the face of it, it seems like it should work like a charm, but proof is in the pudding.<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P><DIV><DIV>Regards,<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV>Fred Sturm<O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:PLACETYPE w:st="on">University</ST1:PLACETYPE> of <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">New Mexico</ST1:PLACENAME></ST1:PLACE><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:fssturm@unm.edu">fssturm@unm.edu</A><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "></O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV></DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV><DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV></DIV><O:P style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; "> </O:P></DIV></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> </DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>