Jeff, Since we don't have a time machine to test that, then yes, it is "impossible to measure"  How do you know what to do if the pianist says " it's difficult to control the pedaling during the pianissimo section of the development in the second movement" or "the presto section of so and so's piece is nearly impossible to acheive"? This kind of musical knowledge is crucial to make the artist happy. Some musicians attempt to put things in layman's terms, but many don't. They do a lot of assuming that we understand their speak. On the other side, some musicians try to understand our lingo and many do, but most don't.  The more education on both sides of the coin, the better the end result will be. At the very least, we should understand musical nomenclature even if we can only play chopsticks. Diversity of learning involves both education and life experiences. Where do you/we draw the line?  There is no "formula" to do this...  Do you want a clear-cut solution? That too, is "impossible". What is your "perfect solution" , then?  There is none, but we have to start with something. If an RPT/ CAUT is to be something "more desireable" than an RPT status, then different standards should be established. So, how would you determine what that is? Or, should we just go with the status-quo for universities to mearly know that RPT's have reached a great level of piano technology and leave the education learned elsewhere by the wayside? Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=40%>Jeff Tanner <jtanner@mozart.sc.edu> Sent by: caut-bounces@ptg.org 10/31/2007 01:11 PM <table border> <tr valign=top> <td bgcolor=white> <div align=center>Please respond to College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org></div></table> <td width=59%> <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>To</div> <td>College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>cc</div> <td> <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>Subject</div> <td>Re: [CAUT] CAUT credential vs. academic program?</table> <table> <tr valign=top> <td> <td></table> </table> On Oct 31, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Paul T Williams wrote:  It's nice to know what they're talking about, but you can't "require" such a diversity of learning for being a CAUT.  It just helps a bunch. I think whether it helps a bunch is dependent on who thinks so.  How would you know how much it has helped since you have the education?  It is impossible to measure that versus how much you could have learned without pursuing the formal education the "establishment" requires. Yes, I'm like you.  I had several majors, beginning with Information Technology, General Business, Risk Management and Choral Education, studying voice and being actively involved in several performing ensembles and other performing opportunities from the 1st day of classes my freshman year before I finished with the Business degree.  Yes.  I was taking major level voice instruction and representing the school at state wide competitions and other events as a Business major. But to say it "helps a bunch" is difficult to measure. We are machine technicians.  What we actually do has little to do with music, whether we want to admit it or not.  Music can be created when we are finished, but it is not necessary to know much about music to do high level piano work.  It seems that persons with high levels of musicianship and musical training tend to pursue our craft, and also tend to be the ones who pursue CAUT work.  But I believe it is possible to do very high level work in our field without much musical knowledge. Jeff Jeff Tanner, RPT University of South Carolina