<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1601" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>AGrre with Tim totally, I might add that with Trim and MOlding Glue, which is all I use anymore, it is best to bore alittle looser. But this glue I find to be the easiest to work with and provides a very consistent collaring (is that a word?). And it doesn't stink. I wouldn't use it for a soundboard. Different glues for different tasks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chris Solliday</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lehigh University</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lafayette College</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>East Stroudsburg University</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tcoates1@sio.midco.net href="mailto:tcoates1@sio.midco.net">Tim Coates</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:41 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CAUT] glues, Poletti</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>I was an advocate of hide glues until people on this list suggested trying Trim and Molding glue for hammer installation and key bushings. I tried it and that's all I use for those situations now. Joints are easily undone with heat, but hold tight even through extreme climate changes. A small amount will hold the joint nicely, though I like to use the application methods with a collar and such.<BR><BR>Tim Coates<BR>University of South Dakota<BR>University of Sioux Falls<BR><BR><BR>On Nov 29, 2007, at 2:09 AM, Diane Hofstetter wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>I'm interested in the question of glues, because I recently watched an unsighted technician gluing grand hammers on with Titebond.  Most of his glue joints were starved for glue and none had glue collars.  I always used hot  hide glue, which I found easy to use, made great glue collars and gave a nice, straight job.  But I can see where that is impractical for this tech, so have been wondering what I might suggest to him in the way of a better glue and better method. Ted, you mentioned fish glue for key bushings, do you think it would be appropriate for hammers?  Does anyone have any good ideas?<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>Thanks!<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>Diane<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>Diane Hofstetter<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> From: edward.sambell@sympatico.ca<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> To: caut@ptg.org<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:15:06 -0500<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Subject: Re: [CAUT] glues, Poletti<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> I read somewhere that all glues will creep to a greater or lesser degree. <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> When I was teaching at George Brown College, it was impractical to have a <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> large number of glue pots for hammer gluing, much as I would have preferred <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> hide glue, so we used Titebond. It was much harder to extract hammers from <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> the shanks with this than those glued with hide glue, though ten minutes <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> with a heat gun let them be pulled off readily.The soundboard splits we <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> commonly encounter in old pianos are mostly not true splits at all, but are <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> separated joins, thus showing that creep has occured by shearing at the <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ribs. It can be assumed that most of these soundbards were glued with hide <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> glue. It is just as well. as if the joints hold, there would be true splits, <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> which would be very difficult to shim unless the grain is very straight. I <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> enjoy working with hide glue, but it is more demanding. It must be carefully <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> controlled in viscosity, though this is also an asset; large work such as <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> cabinetry (and soundboards) should be heated, clamps prepared ahead of <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> assembly and applied very quickly.I have taken to using fish glue for key<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> re-bushing;, but found it necessary to prime coat the mortices first with a <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> 50-50% dilute with water. It is slow setting, but will take hold quickly. <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Fish glue is easily reversible with the usual mix of warm water and a little <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> wallpaper remover. It is availabele from Veritas. There is a small bottle<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> with a brush in the lid which is ideal for light field repairs, and refill <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> 17oz. bottles. I have seen failures with hide glue through lack of <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> understanding. One new grand I saw had a large number of loose hammerheads.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> The glue collars were all near black, indicating the glue had been boiled. <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Hide glue must not be heated above 150F. 140F to 145F is considered the <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> proper range. Bill Spurlock recommends the use of a Rival Express Hot Pot <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> and setting its temperature with the aid of a candy thermometer. I saw these<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> recently in Wal-Mart, and think it a great idea. They cost around $15 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> compared to $100 or so for a dedicated glue pot.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Ted Sambell<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ----- Original Message ----- <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> From: "Richard Brekne" <ricb@pianostemmer.no><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>; <caut@ptg.org><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:40 AM<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> Subject: [CAUT] glues, Poletti<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Hi Anne<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Creep in conditions like you mention seem quite easy to understand. There <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > is a kind of shear stress on a hitch pin rail that is glued to a <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > soundboard. But there is another point from his site I found very <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > disturbing . The assertion that Titebond and similar glues never really <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > harden and impart (to some degree) kind of damping effect, absorbing some <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > of the vibration energy instead of either reflecting or transmitting. This <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > has immediate implications for modern piano building as well as older <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > instruments. I'm not so sure how much a problem Creep is in situations <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > where there is not immediate and significant levels of shear stress on the <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > glue. But I'd like very much to hear more in depth comments about all this <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > in general.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > I'm not sure I'd have a problem using Titebond to fix a broken shank out <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > on some field repair job. But thats not really what I was talking about. <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > When in a restoration shop one has a variety of choices at hand.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Cheers<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > RicB<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Ric wrote:<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Hi Folks<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Reading in one of Anne Ackers i found a reference to the website<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > of one<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Paul Poletti who has a side dedicated to glue. Please look over the<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > following and provide comment.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Thanks<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > RicB<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > ******************************<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > He's absolutely right. Most harpsichords built with aliphatic glues in <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > the 1970's and 1980's demonstrate cold creep very nicely with the <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > shrinking of the gap as the soundboard creeps forward, e.g.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Besides, hide glue is so EASY to use. If it stinks, you're using bad <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > stuff.<?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> ><?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?x-tad-bigger>> > Anne <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>