<html> <body> I think I can agree with a lot of what Ron is saying, with a few differences of opinion. He's right that the computer enables graphic artists to produce a big load of work in a short time, and to make some effects they couldn't make any other way. However, I made up my business card from scratch, with a pen and ink drawing, and with press-on letters, twice the desired size. Then the printer shot it down. The result was a card which looks unlike anyone else's. It stands out from a batch of others whacked together on a computer, without recourse to fancy color or raised printing. You say, <<yet the aural skills most needed to help the ETD are the musical listening skills of the unison, octave and wider octaves.>> And I agree. So, take away those skills from a decent tuning, and what do we have left? The ability to set an equal temperament. Is that such a hard task? And is TOTAL equality so necessary, if the musically important intervals are even? That is, if all the fourths and fifths  are equally good/not good, according to their kind (fourths faster than fifths) with none of them sticking out, and the octave stretch is musically and tonally pleasing, tiny differences in the thirds and sixths wouldn't matter musically, IMO. Is this really so hard to achieve, if one does it each day? Okay, I can see the machines are very useful in pitch raises, and in putting two pianos at exactly the same pitch, when they can't be moved so one can play both keyboards at once, and in "studying", whatever that really means. Or, if one is losing hearing in the top register, a machine could help out up there, enabling one to work for a few more years. For the rest, I don't really see the desirability of using an ETD while carefully checking and correcting for minor problems in its stretches and unisons, versus just setting them oneself unaided. And no batteries, software upgrades, whatever. No staring at little lights and spinning wheels (which would drive me batty in short order.) Visual fatigue is an issue with me. I try to turn off fluorescent lights and overly bright lights when I can, because they are very tiring, and I don't like looking at flashing blinking fiddly little things. "Breaking away from the crutch of aural tuning" ...? By substituting the crutch of a machine? To each his own. As I said, I'm not trying to change anyone's way of doing their work, just sharing my own. Susan At 07:13 AM 3/17/2008, Ron wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">This has been an interesting discussion for me to catch up on this morning.   Decades ago, I turned my back on Braid-White when I realized that the precision hoped for in his beat-counting method was already available in the technology I had.  Both aural checks and machines have made great strides to increase the precision available to tuners - often not emphasizing the accuracy of octaves and larger intervals.   Learning aural tuning is an honorable, satisfying skill - yet the aural skills most needed to help the ETD are the musical listening skills of the unison, octave and wider octaves.  Calligraphy skills were once necessary for the graphics professional , an honorable, satisfying skill, yet todays working graphic artists use the computer as a powerful assistant for layout design.  The time used to learn traditional aural skills can be better used to focus on tone, stability and stretch.  ETD tunings are breaking away from the crutch of aural technique - by focusing on what wetware can easily add to the process in the partnering with the machine.  No longer must a student be expected to tune hundreds, or thousands of pianos before reaching a qualitative level of tuning.   While there is a long tradition of teaching aural temperament techniques, they aren't needed for professional service.  I also realize that very few of you have reached that same conclusion. . .   :-)    I suppose there will always be those that value the process, and the personal satisfaction they get from aural tuning.    Ron Koval Concordia U. <hr> Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". <a href="http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx">Check it out.</a> </blockquote></body> </html>