<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Chris,<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Cents are proportional throughout the piano. You can apply the cents deviations to any and every note (every C the same, every C# the same, etc) anywhere in the piano. It doesn't seem like it would work intuitively, but it does. With SAT, unfortunately, I think you just have to plug in all the numbers, note by note, making sure you add or subtract right, and making sure you do a "note up/note down" to clear the sometimes handy feature in the save mode: when you save a number, the SAT automatically goes up to the next higher note, and leaves the same number in the display that you just changed to for the note below. So to get back to the original number for the tuning you are converting, you have to do a note or octave change, up and down or down and up. (Here is one place where the RCT shines: plug those offset numbers into a custom user temperament, and you can automatically convert any ET tuning in your library to that temperament, just a click of the mouse). </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I wouldn't worry about Lehman's talk of 2:1 octaves. He is dealing with harpsichords, not pianos. <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>An alternative is to do just an octave or two (enter the numbers and tune by them), and then tune out octaves aurally (or using the ETD to match partials). Just use whatever temperament octave you like.<br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Regards,</div><div>Fred Sturm</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div><a href="mailto:fssturm@unm.edu">fssturm@unm.edu</a></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br><div><div>On Mar 22, 2008, at 8:21 AM, Chris Solliday wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2">How about the unadvertised dumb question, do I use the deviations starting at A49 and go up to G#60 or do I use what I would consider the "temperament octave?" If I just have that correct I can manage the rest by ear. Sorry, I don't have time to buy a VT. Having slept on this I now think double and halve is wrong since that would be for cycles per second not cents but maybe the answer lies in putting the temperament onto a page in memory and then applying multi representative stretching techniques using the Double Octave Beat Control as I usually do with my SAT-not your problem Jon. But maybe someone else out there...</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">My confusion is compounded by Lehman's suggestion that a C centered tuning (which is supposedly the great discovery contained within the Bach doodles on the title page of the WTC) begins at middle C40 instead of C52 and all his indications either aurally or ETD are based there. Then he goes on to say that he gives indications for an "A" centered tuning because that is the sacred tuning note of orchestras and many piano tuners which he never spells out, so I infer he means A49 but I suppose it could be A37. Who knows? not me.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thanks for taking the time with this but perhaps it's becoming a more universal thing as Ric B suggests. I am alot like you Jon in that I am doing this just for result and while this may be an opportunity to really dig in and learn something about that which I have been avoiding, I'd really rather just get the thing tuned and go home for some jelly beans. I can appreciate key color but since it is a miniscule part of the available spectrum these days I'm sure Equal Temperament will remain my and most everyone else's tuning of choice. Again the color of jelly beans is much more important...</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thanks,</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Chris</font></div><blockquote dir="ltr" style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-top: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="jonpage@comcast.net" href="mailto:jonpage@comcast.net">Jon Page</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="caut@ptg.org" href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:49 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[CAUT] well tempered</div><div><br></div><blockquote cite="" type="cite" style="padding-bottom: 0px; padding-top: 0px; "><font face="Arial" color="#000000">Dumb question - If I were to continue to the next octaves would I use the</font></blockquote><blockquote cite="" type="cite" style="padding-bottom: 0px; padding-top: 0px; "><font face="Arial" color="#000000">same deviations or double them each octave up and halve them going down?</font></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Dumb answer - dunno. Which is why I went with the VT. No decisions to make</div><div>other than selecting the correct style (stretch) for a given size/quality piano.</div><div><br></div><div>I have tweaked the styles to tune in a manner which my ears agree with.</div><div>The temperament octave is a combo of partials: sm, med, large pianos:</div><div>2:1 80%, 4:2 20%</div><div>4:2 60%, 2:1 40%</div><div>4:2 60%, 6:3 40%</div><div><br></div><div>Aurally check A4-A3 octave size and switch style if needed. Expanding out,</div><div>two or three partials are chosen and given a percentage. No page flipping</div><div>or figuring to do other than assess aurally and either accept or alter the note.</div><div><br></div><div>After many tunings and disagreeing with the machine placement, I have</div><div>assigned registers multiple-partial proportions and sampling points such that</div><div>I find no fault. For instance, instead of using the A5/6/7 as sampling points;</div><div>I chose A5, F#6, D#7, C8. Breaking the top into sixths/samplings, has smoothed</div><div>out inconsistencies at the treble break and the blend of oct's 6 & 7.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm no wizard when it comes to this stuff and defer to others more knowledgeable.</div><div>I'm more of the seat-of-the-pants kind of tuner regarding this, meaning, making it</div><div>work for me without really understanding the nuts and bolts of it all.</div><div><br></div><div>I recently purchased Rick B's book, On Pitch which I hope will shed some light.</div><div><br>Regards,<br><br>Jon Page</div></blockquote></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>