<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16681" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Wim</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No, I'm not comparing apples and oranges. I'm comparing similarly skilled trades.  More like comparing different kinds of apples.  Actually, it takes quite a bit longer to master (if that is even possible) our trade than others who can go to tech school a year or two and come out making a good bit more than colleges pay "highly skilled" piano technicians.  You can even learn on the job for some similarly skilled trades and get paid for it.  Utilities jobs, for example, have apprentice programs that pay almost as much as colleges pay fully skilled techs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But the main point of that post was that states and universities are not the only entities that provide benefits to their employees.  My wife worked for a while as a marketing person for a 4 location big truck dealership.  Her health insurance was completely paid (for the employee), she had 401k and earned leave, just like me.  She made nearly 10K less than me and her take home was only about $200/month different at the time.  This was a relatively small company with about 400 employees overall.  I worked for the state of SC with some 25K employees.  But her company's benefits were just as good.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Leave.  That's an interesting subject.  It is only of value if you actually use it.  Sick leave, especially, tends to be the most unused benefit.  Can't really figure it in unless you plan to be out sick a lot, and most people save it just in case a disaster comes along.  They don't think about that you can only actually use 30 days a year of it, even if you have 6 months saved up.  Extended sick leave is what the short-term disability plan is for.  When I resigned, I left at least a month's worth of sick leave unused, and I took two weeks of sick leave before I resigned, just to take advantage of some of it.  My predecessor had about 6 months built up when he retired.  Didn't pay him a dang thing for it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>And your computations are a bit short.  States which provide the full amount of insurance coverage also pay less in salary to compensate.  For example, I researched one state (Illinois? Indiana?) where all the benefits were completely funded by the employer but the salary bands topped out around $39K (3 or 4 years ago).  You mentioned your $800/month for you and your wife for health insurance. That's nearly what my full family COBRA would have been.  I'm looking into less than $600 for full family now, but let's do some computing.  I had to contribute nearly $300/month for my state health insurance.  So, out of your $50K, that's $3,600 less - not $10,000 extra - though, yes, the state also contributes, but we'll figure that later.  With state health insurance plans, you tend to have stuff added in that most people will never need and that you wouldn't choose as a self-employed person, and so what the state pays is actually a lot more than they could get away with.  And SC takes out 6.5% for retirement - not 3%.  That's another $3,250 less.  Now, we're down to $43,150.  NOW, add in the state's contributions (with a defined benefit retirement - or pension - plan, you only see the state's contribution when and IF you retire).  So, when you compare employees to self-employed, you have to also add in the employee's contributions to those differences.  Then, after everything is deducted, you also have to deduct all that transportation cost that is deductible to a self-employed tech, but not to an employee.  We chose to live 15 miles out where the schools were good when gas was 92 cents a gallon.  Round trip, that's 150 miles a week if they don't make you come in on weekends.  At only 50 cents a mile, 46 weeks a year, that's another roughly $3500 a year, but that's out of take home pay.  With self-employed, that's a tax deduction.  I didn't have to live that far out, but I did want my kids to get to learn to read.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, let's compare that to what my dad did.  He took the apprentice utilities route in the mid sixties.  His health insurance was never over $30/month and was less than $10 for YEARS.  His company's pension plan was completely funded by interest -- no employee deduction for that.  After about 12 years or so, they started offering company stock matching, which he took advantage of.  After 37 years with the company, he retired with full pension, social security kicked in this year, and he so far hasn't had to touch his quarter of a million worth of stock that he converted to other more lucrative investments when he retired.  Yeah, the piano tech position at the college wasn't going to touch that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wife's dad is in a similar situation, but never worked for a "company" and retired several years earlier than my dad.  He was an iron worker and could be very picky with the work he took.  They only had the pension, but he's in a heck of a lot better shape than we would have been at his age if I'd stayed on with the university.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Truck drivers take a 6-8 week course to get their CDL and the only education required is a GED.  Wife's uncle just retired from the same company my dad retired from and took the CDL course. Will come out making $40K-$50K/year the first SIX MONTHS and can make up to 6 figures.  I've told before on this list the story of the 23 year old girl I met about 5 years ago who drove for Keyboard Carriage and BROUGHT HOME $1100/week.  Yeah, that's a bit more than my $670 at the university.  Takes a GED and a short training course.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we're talking apples and oranges, or piano tuners and CPAs, then by these comparisons, we should be the CPAs.  We're college educated, or many of us are, which our parents who earned much more didn't have to be, and piano technicians possess a skill that, just by virtue of its rarity, should command more than what college techs make.  Then look at what music faculties expect in terms of ability and folks, we shouldn't be licking off the bottom of the barrel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Point is, college tech pay is what it is because there are technicians who are willing to work for peanuts.  Or, they think they are, and then get stuck in it and can't get out.  Then, all the schools look at each other and say, "this is what the market is for a fully trained piano technician". It is our own fault.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I resigned, in part, to help my colleagues in this regard.  Part of my resignation was with respect to my peers and those who come after me.  After I resigned, the dean was conveniently able to get the pay band increased (this crap is backwards isn't it?).  Whoever takes this job needs to hold out for higher pay, or my resignation is in vain.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 13, 2008 8:39 PM</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CAUT] Louisiana State SOM Position</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><WBR>But Jeff, now you're starting to compare apples and oranges. My son, the CPA, makes $500,000 a year. I would like to make half a million dollars a year, too, but I'll never be able to do that as a piano tuner. <BR><BR> <DIV style="CLEAR: both">Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT<BR>Piano Tuner/Technician<BR>Honolulu, HI<BR>808-349-2943<BR><A href="http://www.bleespiano.com">www.bleespiano.com</A><BR>Author of <BR>The Business of Piano Tuning<BR>available from Potter Press<BR>www.pianotuning.com</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jeff Tanner <tannertuner@bellsouth.net><BR>To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org><BR>Sent: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:58 am<BR>Subject: Re: [CAUT] Louisiana State SOM Position<BR><BR> <DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4> <STYLE>#AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } UNKNOWN { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } #AOLMsgPart_2_dbd6f8e0-81be-4a6c-9e90-46b8867c8db4 DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You also have to keep in mind that companies also provide retirement, insurance, vacation time, holiday time and still pay professional level salaries.  I'm not talking about just piano technology here.  But my sister had to have her air conditioning looked at last weekend.  The guy was there an hour and the bill was about $440.  He didn't work for himself. I'm sure he has some sort of retirement, insurance, vacation time, holiday time and probably makes a good living.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=scott.thile@murraystate.edu href="mailto:scott.thile@murraystate.edu">Scott E. Thile</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">'College and University Technicians'</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 13, 2008 2:38 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CAUT] Louisiana State SOM Position</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=609134617-13062008><FONT face=Arial size=2>...</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=609134617-13062008><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=609134617-13062008><FONT face=Arial size=2>One thing we've got to keep in mind while looking at what appear to be low salaries when compared to private sector work is retirement, insurance, vacation time, holiday time etc... It took a while, but I now have 3 1/2 weeks of paid vacation time (and it's about to be 4). One of those weeks is just about to start--hurray! </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV class=aol_ad_footer id=u8CA9BCE2BAA6AA8-B44-326E><FONT style="FONT: 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF; COLOR: black"> <HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px"> <A title=http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011 href="http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011" target=_blank>Get the Moviefone Toolbar</A>. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!</FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>