<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> Chris and list,<o:p></o:p> My two cents are to get or make a piano horse. I’ve not seen anything else that is even close to the “do no damage” idea. I use one fairly regularly in the moving portion of my business. The only other thing I have done before purchasing the “horse” was to take the bass corner down to the floor by hand. That has trouble too on pianos where the side of the keybed uses a piece of trim work. You can also dent the corner on pianos with softer wood. I’ve not heard anyone mention that the corners of the lyre also get dented wood when using the lyre to rock the piano down. I’ve also not heard about the possibility, however slim, of the keybed flexing and allowing the drop screws to be driven into the underside of the Pinblock if they were close to begin with. Personally I will NEVER use the lyre as a fulcrum. It simply wasn’t designed for that. It hangs not supports! <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> Greg Newell<o:p></o:p> Greg's Piano Forté<o:p></o:p> www.gregspianoforte.com<o:p></o:p> 216-226-3791 (office)<o:p></o:p> 216-470-8634 (mobile)<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'> From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Chris Solliday Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:36 PM To: l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net; College and University Technicians Subject: Re: [CAUT] piano moving stuff<o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> I too was amazed to watch a man who I respected and who assured me that rolling on the lyre was safe split the mount on a Steinway M. That was about ten years ago and although I intuitively avoided the procedure prior to that I now have at least one really good reason to NEVER do that. It may work most of the time but as I professional who is committed to "Do No Damage" I need a procedure that works all the time. Safety first of course.<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Chris Solliday rpt<o:p></o:p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> ----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> From: <a href="mailto:l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net" title="l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net">Leslie Bartlett</a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> To: <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org" title="caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:09 PM<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Subject: Re: [CAUT] piano moving stuff<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <o:p> </o:p> </div> I   was on the moving crew at the Chicago convention at which one of the crew was an adamant supporter of moving on the lyre. "Never had a problem"........................   So he was in charge of the move of the M&H and we watched while the lyre simply disintegrated under the weight  of the piano.  I've done a few lyre moves myself, but there's a trick i use. A "chinning bar" which screws out to fit into a doorway can be wedged in between the lyre and the treble leg, thus putting almost all the stress on the bar rather than the lyre.  However, I think the M&H would still have collapsed.  It was a fragile lyre for a very heavy piano. les bartlett houston Elwood Doss wrote: <o:p></o:p> Thanks for including the info on the 52nd Annual Convention.  Hopefully my wife and I can attend.<o:p></o:p> A lot of professional piano movers use the lyre to swing the grand piano to the dolly.  I cringe every time I see it, but it evidently works for them.  I like the piano horse and jack-in-the-box myself.<o:p></o:p> Joy!<o:p></o:p> Elwood<o:p></o:p> <div> Elwood Doss, Jr., M.M.E., RPT<o:p></o:p> Piano Technician/Technical Director<o:p></o:p> Department of Music<o:p></o:p> 145 Fine Arts Building<o:p></o:p> The University of Tennessee at Martin<o:p></o:p> Martin, TN  38238<o:p></o:p> 731/881-1852<o:p></o:p> FAX: 731/881-7415<o:p></o:p> HOME: 731/587-5700<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center> </div> From: <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ward & Probst, Inc Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:00 PM To: 'College and University Technicians' Subject: Re: [CAUT] piano moving stuff<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> PW,<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Many movers regularly turn grands on the lyre without problems. I don't because we have the Horse and it seems safer to me. Gordon Crail, who invented the Horse, is a friend and we have a prototype that has been used for years in the shop and on the road. He suggests, blocking the tail end of the dolly up, using a person to counter balance the key end, and using a lift strap. Doing this saves a lot of strain, as about half of the lift is done. I don't have pics of the skids but the GC is sort of like what we have. We have fixed wheels in the center and swivel wheels at each end. <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> I enjoyed the Annual and it seemed to me that most everyone else did. The facility was good and the Institute and Home Office staff had every thing running smoothly. Next year it will be in Grand Rapids, MI at the Amway Grand Hotel which looks like one of the best venues yet.<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> DP <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> July 15, 2009--July 19, 2009<o:p></o:p> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> 52ND ANNUAL CONVENTION Amway Grand Hotel Grand Rapids, MI Contact: Sandy Roady 4444 Forest Avenue, Kansas City, KS 66106 Phone: 913-432-9975 Fax: 913-432-9986<o:p></o:p> </blockquote> </div> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>  -----Original Message----- From: <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Paul T Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:17 PM To: College and University Technicians Subject: Re: [CAUT] piano moving stuff<o:p></o:p> I NEVER use the lyre for tilting.  Who does such a horrible thing?  How would one combine the two?  I'm trying to visualize  getting the lifting of the back end of the grand away for getting a dolly under....  Sure would save some backs!!! pw ps Thanks.  I think I may get a Horse for myself here in the shop..  It looks real good.  any pics of your shop built thing? How was natonal? pw <o:p></o:p> <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" style='width:100.0%;margin-left:.5in'> <tr> <td width="39%" valign=top style='width:39.98%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> "Ward & Probst, Inc" <a href="mailto:wardprobst@wardprobst.com"><wardprobst@wardprobst.com></a> Sent by: <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> <o:p></o:p> 06/25/2008 02:34 PM <o:p></o:p> <table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellpadding=0> <tr> <td valign=top style='background:white;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;background-position-x:0%; background-position-y:50%'> Please respond to College and University Technicians <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org"><caut@ptg.org></a><o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td width="58%" valign=top style='width:58.98%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" style='width:100.0%'> <tr> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> To<o:p></o:p> </td> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> "'College and University Technicians'" <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org"><caut@ptg.org></a> <o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> cc<o:p></o:p> </td> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> Subject<o:p></o:p> </td> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'> Re: [CAUT] piano moving stuff<o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </table> <o:p> </o:p> <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0> <tr> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td> <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> </table> Hi Paul,   Use the Horse all the time and love it. The only problem may be combining the two. It looks like the Grand Chariot <a href="http://www.premiermovingequipment.com/">http://www.premiermovingequipment.com/</a> may be raised off the ground a bit and the Horse is designed to take the piano to the ground. I use something similar to the GC that is shop built and it requires more care to use it in combination with the Horse. Looks like the GC is designed for those who use the lyre for turning.   DP Dale Probst, RPT Midwestern State University -----Original Message----- From: <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Paul T Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:28 PM To: <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a> Subject: [CAUT] piano moving stuff Hi all I hope your time in Anaheim was good for all! We have a professor here who is going to be "on the road" with her Yamaha C-7 this fall.  she asked me about piano moving stuff and mentioned the piano horse (janssen) and something called a "grand chariot"  which looks more like a skidboard with wheels. Have any of you used these things?  Are they worth the money? (she has a grant to buy said items)  Anything better out there? Thanks in advance Paul <o:p></o:p> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html>