<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Oct 16, 2008, at 2:24 PM, Ed Sutton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kent-</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Have you been tuning some small, compromised scale pianos as well as larger grands? </font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Sure. I'll try to do a recording of one.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2">What do you hear in the mid-range 3rds, 4ths,5ths and 8vas? Particularly on small pianos.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A good tuning.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">How would these tunings do if used for an exam master tuning?</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>These are a bit wider than is normal for a master tuning, but IMO they could work fine except perhaps in the high treble where the exam calls for clean single octaves.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Are there any user choices to be made or is it basically a hard-wired program?</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hard-wired.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">And does it tell you how many angels can dance on the head of a tuning pin?</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course. More if you use OnlyPure. Naturally.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Ed Sutton</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div> </div><blockquote dir="ltr" style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="kswafford@gmail.com" href="mailto:kswafford@gmail.com">Kent Swafford</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="caut@ptg.org" href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:45 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [CAUT] P-12ths was: Tuning a Steinway D and aBosendorferImperial together</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div>Fred, your post is thoroughly reasonable.</div><div> </div><div>I have been trying to understand Stopper for almost 2 years now. There are some obstacles. First there are language and cultural barriers. And second, there is the simple fact that Stopper is trying to make money from his discoveries; his vagueness may not be a matter of not "grasping the complexities" as much as they are simply wishing to keep the knowledge proprietary.</div><div> </div><div>But make no mistake, Stopper's credentials are solid, and in 4 months of intensive use of PureTuner (my nickname for Tunic OnlyPure) I have only been able to corroborate his claims, not refute them.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Kent</div><div><br><br> </div><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Fred Sturm<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fssturm@unm.edu">fssturm@unm.edu</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div class="Ih2E3d"><div><div> </div></div></div><div><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div><span style="white-space: pre; "></span>What I am trying to do is to point out that, IMO, "there is nothing magic" about the 19th root of 3 as a basis for tuning. It is simply indistinguishable from other mathematical ways of establishing equal half step relationships in the real, inharmonic world of piano tuning.<br></div><div><span style="white-space: pre; "></span>Stopper argues otherwise (see his article, referenced in a post I sent previously). I don't find his arguments at all compelling. Others may. He makes the 19th root of 3 division the basis for the "Stopper comma," which he makes great claims for. He does say that to the "additional stretch" produced by beginning with a pure 12th must be added the inharmonicity of the piano, though his explanation of how this is done is VERY vague, and doesn't demonstrate a very good grasp of the complexities involved. An example of his explanation of inharmonicity and tuning:</div><div> "The inharmonicity itself pushes the whole scale away from the theoretical frequencies derived by the scale functional formula. The inharmonicity is already considered when tuning aurally, since the ear makes an integration of the harmonics to a "virtual pitch." If an aural tuner tunes a slight beat-rate-narrow fifth, that fifth remain about the same amount beat-rate-narrow in instruments with different inharmonicity, wheras the absolute frequency deviation is up to some cents on stiff strings in the treble." </div><div><span style="white-space: pre; "></span>He claims "the recent discovery of the Supersymmetry between the beats and the frequencies" based on his tuning. Perhaps if it is demonstrated to me, I will be blown away. I am skeptical. Actually, he seems more focused on electronic and other "essentially harmonic" instruments than on acoustic pianos. </div><div class="Ih2E3d"><div>Regards,</div><div>Fred Sturm</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div><a href="mailto:fssturm@unm.edu" target="_blank">fssturm@unm.edu</a></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote></div><br></body></html>