Hi Dale, Thank you for your great offer:  Do you provide boring, tapering, coving services, too?  My power tools are a bit primative, and budget is so that it wouldn't make sense to buy a whole bunch of new stuff at this time.....perhaps over a few years, this could be done. On the hardness factor question: The practice rooms are about 10x10 with paper thin walls....like most universities.  I would like to see about a 5 on the 1-10 scale.   I'll go upstairs and see which should be my first "patient", and then get back to you. I'm looking forward to trying the Ronsen VFG. Best, Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td>From: <td>Dale Erwin <erwinspiano@aol.com> <tr valign=top> <td>To: <td>caut@ptg.org <tr valign=top> <td>Date: <td>03/06/2011 04:06 PM <tr valign=top> <td>Subject: <td>Re: [CAUT] Hammers are felt springs--was Steinway....</table> <hr noshade> Hi Paul  Thanks for the straight forward reply. Hey I know Wally too and he is the friend of so many. I just find it good natured amusing to see that kind of warm affection supplant the other real product name. Really, he's done so much and dersves that. As a point of clarity there is also the Abel product sold by Piano-tek but I think we know the difference usually. A few brief comments interspersed below. If we could limit the limitations of the comments to small practice rooms and studios becasue that is what I expereinced again last week.  A newer Mason A with the usual hammers that I had to annihilate to get them into a better place. I was still not pleased. Dale S. Erwin <a href=www.Erwinspiano.com>www.Erwinspiano.com</a> Paul williams Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammers are felt springs--was Steinway.... Hi Dale I think it might be a good idea for all of us to contact hammer producers to develop some sort of a soft (not too much so) hammer designed for just practice rooms and other small teacher studios, etc.  I'm wondering if there would be a market for this.  There has been such a hammer and a market for the past 15 years. The Ronsen VFG and more recently Wurzen AA felt. It is the VFG hammer that originally got my attention in approx 1993 or 4. I heard an upright at a fellow techs shop. Ater listening carefully my inquiry was, that hammer?  He told me and the next question was, what did you do to them.  He said..Nothing.  I just got them in. In disbelief I said really? Yup Clear, excellent sustain and a fine blend of partials. On most uprights where these have been installed, so the experience was repeatable with consistency. Have installed several dozens of these for private clients mainly and also institutions.  After installing my first set it became my default hammer of choice. Nice clear sound, no juice and no needling. Minor needling later and the hold fantastic.  For uprights and practice room/small studio rooms being able to install this type of hammer was a low cost value added product for the University & for me. The hold up famously well. Yeah I know, to good to be true. On as scale of 1 to 10 if no.1 is a cotton ball and no. 10 is a rock where on the stiffness gradient would you like your practice room/small room hammer to be for this application?   I spend a lot of time voicing down practice grands that are played 16 hours a day.  No matter what I put on them, they're harsh and painful in just a few months, but built well enough to handle quite a few years of abuse.  This would not be your experience if you decide to install a set of these so I encourage you to try the VFG Ronsen hammer and stop the bleeding out of your ears  On the other hand, I don't want to start out with a "mushy" sound that will only get to a nice level in 6 months. There are no hammers in the Ronsen family I would describe as mushy.  David Love described them well in a recent post.  These students who play these pianos have futures that are sitting there in our hands to make them work and sound properly, so I think there must be a "happy family" somewhere. We have to keep in mind why we're all here....for the students, mostly.  The stage is a totally different issue.  I agree. Hey We all started somewhere Anything to lesson this massive care of practice pianos is all welcome to me.  I'll make you  a deal.  Paul, heres my offer....Pick a practice room piano. I'll provide you with a set of VFG felt up. hammers and if you do not like them don't pay for them. I am that confident. I have installed them in Yamaha P202s,P22s of several versions. Kawai up. Baldwin Hamiltons etc. Yamaha and Kawai grands of many sizes. More Technician feed back as of last night at the West-pac convention:  I spoke with Steve Brady & Nick Gravange who both took me aside privately to tell me enthusiastically how pleased they were and what a great tonal platform the new Weickert hammers were. Steve said he couldn't believe how even and beautiful the tone was and how little he had to do in a Falcone . Nick said he used the set I sent him in a BB Mason for a performance venue and he inquired as to my voicing protocol. He did use some 8 to 1 solution to get them up a bit in the bass and a weaker solution higher up to get it where the room and others thought it should be. A further comment was if it would had been his piano in his own home he would have done nothing at all. Or, I'll just have to keep the needles in good supply. BTW, I do steam them as a "quick" fix...with a capachino steamer which the students find fascinating to watch!  Wouldn't it be great to stop or seriously limit all the voicing gymnastics Paul? I feel your pain learned this from Roger Gable about 15 years ago. Nice quick fix.  If the hammers are rocks, however, it doesn't really work well and I don't run the steamer over them more than twice. What say you fellow CAUT's?? I'm I out in left field....again :>(???  just trying to learn this crazy caut thing!! I would enjoy hearing feedback as well   Thanks Paul Best, Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=14%>From: <td width=85%>Dale Erwin <<a href=mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com>erwinspiano@aol.com</a>> <tr valign=top> <td>To: <td><a href=mailto:caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a> <tr valign=top> <td>Date: <td>03/06/2011 01:19 PM <tr valign=top> <td>Subject: <td>Re: [CAUT] Hammers are felt springs--was Steinway....</table> <hr> I notice the Abel Neutral hammers often referred to as "Wallys naturals".  Now that he's not running the company anymore, why does this persist? Melanie, his very capable daughter is running it, so shouldn't the the hammers be called  Melanies Naturals.....naturally? :)  AS I read posts like this routinely I am kind of befuddled. So many hammer makers issue us hammers with a  hard knot of felt, which is ever present over the top of the molding. This feature characterizes firmer pressing of hammers all over the planet and they tend to be high in maintenance thereby consuming precious school budgets which are.....increasingly scarce. I realize there are many specific situations and reasons why we use a particular type of hammer, including me and I have sometimes chosen poorly. It is a fact that, the technical definition of a piano hammer is a non-linear felt spring (See five lecture on the acoustics of the piano.) Yet primarily many hammers more resemble the consistency of buffing wheels. Or cotton balls filled with lacquer. And we are expected to make them work and hold up? Really? In my opinion there only a few hammers made currently in the world that fit the true model of this description. 2 in this country, 2 in Canada and sometimes by happy accident....China. There may be others elsewhere but I am unaware of them. And there may be some well known brand of pianos where the pendulum is swinging back the other way but am unclear which ones at this moment. For 25 years I have observed with keen interest the hammer wear in institutional settings.  Routinely these ahmmers are infected with  deafening earsplitting sounds in practice rooms, and breaking strings with in very short periods of time etc. In light of this I ask, should we really embrace the predominate styles of hammer for high use institutional settings, especially practice rooms? There is, without a doubt, in my mind ,that hammers acting as a felt spring have a much greater ability to maintain a musical tone & provide precious voicing stability with out massive amounts of needling or much anything else. The resistance to this idea /reality is especially perplexing and have not heard many support it. Is it possible to over look the pianos in our care that are not being problems in high use situations? Do we ask, why are these hammers holding up and still sounding musical, and others not? hmmm.   Considering the problematic nature of hot/ hard pressed hammers in high use situations, does it not make sense to consider a different hammer choice and experience this for oneself? Professionally speaking , I am tonally and musically driven and value both my hearing and the music as you all do.  I value the same for the students and teachers I serve and it is why I take the risk to state this premise clearly and passionately. The fact that I possess a bias is not for nothing and not because I am involved deeply with the Ronsen hammer brand. It is primarily for the reasons  outlined in this post....and..... I Love music Regards Dale Erwin-Heritic at large <a href=www.Erwinspiano.com>www.Erwinspiano.com</a> -----Original Message----- From: Paul T Williams <<a href=mailto:pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu</a>> To: <a href=mailto:caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a> Sent: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: Steinway sound-Hammer weights Hi Dave, You're exactly right!  No matter what hammers are on those pianos, they get bright....and very quickly!  2 of 5 piano faculty have 2 B's each; one has 2 M's, one an L, and the other has her own personal Yam c-7.  It would be a nearly full time job to keep them in great tune, regulation, and voiced properly.  The yam is the yam and since it's hers, can do very little. The M's are nice and not played hard, the L is likewise not pounded on, but played regularly and has Abel Naturals on.  It's the 4 B's that need constant attention!  One prof is an extremely hard player with likewise hard playing students, so I'm fixing broken strings about every 6 weeks. Mostly this happens in the capo, but the Sty with the Sty hammers has busted 4 bass strings in 2 years.  His pianos have a set of regular Sty hammers and the other has a set of Wallys Naturals. Both break strings about the same. The other prof has NY hammers on both, but not as hard a player. I rarely fix broken strings there. I try to watch the regulation closely as I can, but I fear if I back off the let off and drop, they'll complain that pp or ppp is impossible to control. They are bright!  I'll voice them down, but it only lasts a couple months.  I can see how that would tire the poor prof, but what can we do? Good input! On to fight another day.. Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=15%>From: <td width=84%>"David M. Porritt" <<a href=mailto:dmporritt@gmail.com>dmporritt@gmail.com</a>> <tr valign=top> <td>To: <td><<a href=mailto:caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a>> <tr valign=top> <td>Date: <td>03/03/2011 02:06 PM <tr valign=top> <td>Subject: <td>Re: [CAUT] Fwd:  Steinway sound-Hammer weights</table> <hr> When I was working at SMU the piano teachers with a full load of students didn't want a loud and boisterous piano in their studio (all had 2 "B"s except one teacher who had to "D"s).  As one piano teacher with 55 years of experience there stated: "...you can't listen to 4 or 5 hours of a bright piano.  The cochlea will fatigue and you will miss subtle things."  I think he is absolutely correct. dave -----Original Message----- From: <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 10:49 AM To: <a href=mailto:caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: Steinway sound-Hammer weights I agree about the concert hall in most situations although I do have a piano that I work on in a small concert hall in which I worked closely with a committee of pianists to select hammer and voice for the piano as they wanted it when I was rebuilding the action for them (Steinway B).  The group of 5 or 6 professional pianists and teachers ended up choosing a Wurzen felt hammer (Ronsen), a comparatively soft pressing when compared with the more typical lacquered up hammer or a Renner performance type hammer, and with the exception of the top two octaves received no hardeners, and even then a very light application.  The piano sits next to a 30 year old Bosendorfer 228 which produces somewhat more power and the complaints I get (not too many :-)) are never about the Steinway being too soft but do happen with the Bosendorfer being too loud and bright and I've voiced it down some to please the even below where I would prefer to hear it.  The hall is rather live though.  Just one example.  Personally, I find that Steinway a bit dark (and I probably lean toward warmer and slightly darker as my own personal taste) so that might tell you something at least about this one situation and this group of pianists, FWIW. I find that with the professional pianists that I work with (and there are quite a few) brighter is rarely the choice for their practice pianos.  Most want a pretty round and warm sound, clear and not muffled, but not what I would consider bright.  Softer hammers have often been the choice here (though not on a D necessarily, but most I know don't practice on D's). They seem to have no trouble extrapolating to the concert hall but for day in and day out practicing they want something more pleasing even erring on darker over brighter.  Not always true, of course.  Many of the professors whose pianos I keep at Stanford prefer the pianos brighter, but not all. Perhaps that's because they are going back and forth between their studios and the stage pianos more often.  Outside of that setting, however, with most of the professional pianists that I work with I would say that I'm generally asked to bring things down far below the level of where you would expect a concert stage piano to be.  I do find that serious piano students (on the other hand), especially those on the ascent, often prefer brighter. I don't want to delve into my own theory about what that psychology might be but I do see a trend coming out of one, in particular, well known East Coast music school that seems to value power and brashness over nuance and depth. Standards get set in all kinds of ways. David Love <a href=www.davidlovepianos.com>www.davidlovepianos.com</a> The softer hammer may make some customers very, very happy, but I don't think it works in the concert hall, or in the professional pianist's studio (or as the serious student's practice instrument). Perhaps there are exceptions, and if so I'd like to hear about them. Regards, Fred Sturm <a href=mailto:fssturm@unm.edu>fssturm@unm.edu</a> “Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it.” Brecht