Hi Alan I post back and forth on each area of the site to get the most feed back from techs who use the new list, and those who email.  (I prefer the old way, in case my vote makes a voice)  Yes,  after some research, I'm going to try the TouchRail system with this Petrof.  First, I'm trying on a 70's Steinway B that is horrible in a piano prof studio.   I'll see what I have after going through this Petrof.  Huge hammers.  I'm sure I can reduce a lot of weight there. Upon more investigation, nasty tight action centers, oversnug key bushings and swollen key balance holes, and keypins in desparate need of polishing!.  That will have a lot to say when i'm done.   Me thinks that class about the new site at KC is going to be packed!!  Eh? thanks!         PAUL         <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td>From: <td>"McCoy, Alan" <amccoy@ewu.edu> <tr valign=top> <td>To: <td>CAUTlist <caut@ptg.org> <tr valign=top> <td>Date: <td>06/29/2011 11:29 AM <tr valign=top> <td>Subject: <td>Re: [CAUT] Interesting</table> <hr noshade> Hi Paul, I’m not sure why you posted to this old list but I saw your post. I echo David’s thoughts on turbo wips as well as the suggestion that you take care of friction first. The only thing I would add is that before I used turbo wips, if I still had a piano that had too much lead and was still heavy, and budget were limited, I would go with Scott Jones’s Touchrail. I don’t think there is a downside to these. The cost is very reasonable, installation is fast, installation is reversible and their use can be customized and flexible. If you haven’t explored these, see Scott at the convention at his booth (I’m assuming he’ll be there). Alan McCoy <hr>From: David Love <<a href=davidlovepianos@comcast.net>davidlovepianos@comcast.net</a>> Reply-To: CAUTlist <<a href=caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a>> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:24:51 -0700 To: CAUTlist <<a href=caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a>> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Interesting I’m not a fan of turbo wippens if they can be avoided.  All of those 1970’s pianos will require a switch to 17 mm knuckles when replacing parts (at least I haven’t met one that didn’t so far).  Sometimes a capstan move is required as well.  There was a between period after they went to the accelerated action but kept the 16 (or 15.5!) mm knuckle position and it was pretty much a disaster with 7 or 8 leads in the lower part of the piano and high touch weights as you report along with high inertia.  Nasty things to play in spite of the adaptability of most pianists.  Once you are able to determine the match for leverage and hammer weight you’ll likely be able to avoid the turbo wippens.  Look for someone who is teaching Stanwood methodology in KC.   It’s really the most direct method of analyzing this stuff but a grounding in action analysis the “old” way is also a good foundation as it tells you much about how the action will regulate.  David Love <a href=www.davidlovepianos.com>www.davidlovepianos.com</a> From: <a href="caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Paul T Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:16 PM To: <a href=caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Interesting thanks, David.  I'll be taking those classes! Do you like the turbo wips? It helped some on one of the other prof's 70's steinway B....  I just don't like the $850 for them if I can help it. Paul From: "David Love" <<a href=davidlovepianos@comcast.net>davidlovepianos@comcast.net</a>> To: <<a href=caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a>> Date: 06/22/2011 03:55 PM Subject: Re: [CAUT] Interesting <div align=center> <hr noshade></div> You can’t make decisions about moving capstans until you know how friction is contributing to your problem.  You shouldn’t make decisions about replacing parts without an analysis of the action leverage and the weight of the component parts.   If the action was heavy with lots of lead before and you use the same specs to replace the parts why would you expect anything different?  DW by itself won’t tell you much, you have to check the upweight as well.  Not sure where to start but I wouldn’t look to center pin lubricants to solve your problems generally.   Kansas City is offering some good classes on this very subject.  Good place to start.   David Love <a href=www.davidlovepianos.com>www.davidlovepianos.com</a> <<a href=www.davidlovepianos.com>www.davidlovepianos.com</a>>   From: <a href="caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> <<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>> ] On Behalf Of Paul T Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:16 PM To: mick johnson; <a href=caut@ptg.org>caut@ptg.org</a> Subject: [CAUT] Interesting   Mick and all. I asked Mick about heavy DW on a '79 Steinway B.  I just replaced all hammers and shanks with S&S parts that weighed out the same as the old ones...just a little heavier since the old ones had been filed a few times. (I call this Ham-shanks when making notes) Before DW was over 60g in the bass, and high 50's in the treble.  Lots of lead in the keys. Ugh! (thinking about moving the capstans) Just for fun, before I left for a couple hours, I McLubed the wippen action centers.  When I came back, the samples I juiced did indeed come down about 10g!!  I'm sure it's just a short term fix, but wondered if yall have tried this? Paul