<html> <body> I'll accept some of what Wim says regarding insurance, in the abstract.  I would love to check, however, into the specifics.  As an insurer, would I necessarily want to cover damage caused by the deployment of inexperienced workers?  But that's not even the point.  We don't know the specifics here...the size of the institution, the frequency of such moves, the nature of the maintenance work force. The permission of the union.  Paul's email sort of indicts him in this.  He says: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><tt>I have suggested that this is not cost-effective, and indeed we now don't have the money for imminent required moves.  I have previously put forth the idea of using either students or physical plant/maintenance staff.</tt></blockquote> Why did he make this suggestion?  Did he check with maintenance staff first?  What is their view?   He says it's "iminent".[sic]. {see what life's gonna be like without spell check?}   If the maintenance gents demur, (as they so often are wont to do),  what happens?  The event doesn't happen, or Paul moves them himself, or, somehow, money is moved  from another budget.  Yes, mechanically it could be done, but this is enabling behavior on our part, and fundamentally unhealthy. And finally, given what I learned while looking up pineapples after Wim's distressing revelation, it would seem to be the island's good fortune that they are not too heavily into production.  Heavy pesticide use and low worker wages.  But just the invitation itself stirs my travel juices.  I'll be lucky if I get as close to Hawaii as, say. Seattle?. David Skolnik Hastings on Hudson, NY At 08:39 PM 12/4/2011, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> <dl> <dd>Depending upon your institution, maintenance workers union may not allow them to do this work, nor should they. </dl>David   Moving a piano would be no different, from a maintenance mover's perspective, than moving desks and file cabinets. (Not to say moving a piano is as easy as moving a desk, but from physical stress point of view, it's the same). The basic difference is in the technique. And that is where some training and instructions come in. As far as insurance is concerned. For the physical damage to a piano, most universities are self insured for things like that. If new parts are required, or even a whole new piano, they would pay for that themselves. As far as injury to a worker, the university is covered for that, too, with liability insurance.   Wim   PS. Although there are some small pineapple fields left in Hawaii, our main income is from friendly folks like you coming for a visit. So when are you coming?<img src="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/resources/core/images/wink.png" width=25 height=25 alt=";-)"> -----Original Message----- From: David Skolnik <davidskolnik@optonline.net> To: caut <caut@ptg.org> Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [CAUT] Moving Grand Pianos Intra-Department Paul, As a preface, I would point out to you that, by intent or not, you've posted to the older CAUT list, which, along with its sister, <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>, is currently slated for shut down in a little more than a week. To the matter of your question however, I would say that there are, as far as I know, only two significant issues about which I tend to disagree with our honorable friend from the land of pineapples.  One is when the discussion goes to how long it should take to tune a piano.  The other, it would seem, is this issue about piano moving.  I am of the diametrically opposite opinion. Here's my take: - First, I'm glad that at least someone had the sense to nix the student idea.  Even the success of using students for stage moves depends a great deal on the stage-culture of the particular institution, i.e. respect for how they do their job. - Depending upon your institution, maintenance workers union may not allow them to do this work, nor should they.  As with aforementioned stage-culture, there is a range of piano-moving culture, and skill, that should not be taken for granted.  And, if something were to go wrong, whose insurance covers either worker or piano?   You say the department doesn't have the money for immanent moves.  I don't believe it.  You just finished saying that you (the institution) could save thousands of dollars using students, which would imply that you do these moves fairly frequently.  Is that accurate?  If so, why?  Why are you moving pianos so often?   Besides, I find it hard to believe that you couldn't call around and work out a deal with a mover who is experienced, intelligent and wants the work.  Find ways to make it easy for them.  Maybe you do, in fact, acquire the basic equipment, so that they don't have to drag their stuff from the truck each time.  Stuff like that.  Now, if you wanted to take it on yourself, that might be a different story. Sooner or later, one of the maintenance guys may figure out how to tune a piano, after listening to you a few times.  Then, watch out. Just my view, but I'm right. David Skolnik Hastings on Hudson, NY At 05:55 PM 12/4/2011, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Paul   It would be very cost effective to have the university people do the moving. The school needs to buy the dolly, skid board, and blankets, but if you've observed enough moves you should be able to supervise the moves. If possible, try to get the same crew to do this every time, so you don't have to keep teaching what to do. Since I did a lot of moving myself in the past, I only supervised, but did half the work. But there is no need to be that much involved. Once the crew gets the hang of it, moving a piano is not that difficult.   I used to move the uprights myself, even getting them up on a dolly. But if I was still at a school, I would now ask for help.   Moving the grands on stage is for the students who are responsible for that. The most you might need to do is instruct them how to move a piano through a door.   Wim   -----Original Message----- From: Paul Milesi <<a href="mailto:paul@pmpiano.com">paul@pmpiano.com</a>> To: PTG CAUT List <<a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a>> Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: [CAUT] Moving Grand Pianos Intra-Department <tt>We need to move a few grand pianos within our music department at school. No stairs are involved, just breaking down, relocating via dolly and elevator, and setting up again.  In the past, the department has used outside professional piano movers, both from a dealer and independent. I have suggested that this is not cost-effective, and indeed we now don't have the money for imminent required moves.  I have previously put forth the idea of using either students or physical plant/maintenance staff.  Of course the student idea was shot down because of liability issues.  But what about maintenance staff?  Although I am not a piano mover per se, I've probably witnessed enough moves and stood by insisting on removal of the lyre, etc. to be able to instruct and provide guidance to those with the brawn I lack. What do those on the list think?  How do your schools move pianos internally, and what is your personal involvement?  Do you supervise or instruct/teach proper moving techniques?  At $250 for one standard move, it seems to me that a change in policy here could save our department literally thousands of dollars. While we're on the moving topic: Do you yourselves ever move uprights, or lend a hand positioning pianos on a recital stage or in a studio?  Just curious. Paul Milesi RPT Washington DC (202) 246-3136 Cell/Text <a href="mailto:paul@pmpiano.com">paul@pmpiano.com</a> <a href="http://www.pmpiano.com/" eudora="autourl"> http://www.pmpiano.com</a> </tt></blockquote></blockquote></body> </html>