Hi Brent,<div><br></div><div>All due respect, but this comment you've made outlines exactly why Steinway is so successful, and other equal (or better) instruments are given the nose to the air treatment. You wrote:</div>
<div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">My doubt stems from knowing that</span><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
Steinway rim construction, utilizing rock maple, is the</div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">standard for instrument projection."</div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">The only people who "know" this to be true are those who "know" Steinway is the best, or who "know" anything else in this world. This "knowing" is nothing more than prejudicial hyperbole. It makes honest comparison impossible. I certainly don't "know" that maple is the best rim material. Perhaps I'm a fool. I would also agree that as Mr Anderson states, "</span><span style="font-size:16px">personal preference should determine your choice here."</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">If you want your pianos to sound like a NY Steinway, then by all means choose one. However, if you have differing tonal ideas, your choice doesn't instantly become lesser by virtue of it not being a Steinway. Neither does it mean that any of the long held Steinway marketing myths are anything more than that.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">You wrote, "</span><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt">because there is simply </span><font face="'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif">no mistakes made in Steinway</font><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:times,serif"> joinery, including boards and bridges.</span><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">" My experience is different here. I've seen plenty of mistakes on S&S boards and bridges (and braces). It's not perfect. Don't get me wrong. It doesn't make it awful, it just means it's not always "the best." There is room.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">You wrote, "</span><span style="font-family:tahoma,times,serif;font-size:10pt">Steinway makes the only piano that doesn't blow </span><span style="font-size:10pt">up on "FFF"</span><span style="font-size:10pt"> and selective artists know the difference and the sound. </span><span style="font-size:10pt">.</span><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">" And again, I would say my experience is very different. I've known many instrument makes apart from Steinway whose pianos can go above and beyond Steinway. And while it may be true that artists "recognize" a particular tonal spectrum associated with Steinway, it doesn't have to mean that palette is the only desirable one. Just because it has the name Steinway on it, I don't personally feel that makes everything that it is desirable, or even OK in some cases. </span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Take Steinway's notorious duplex segments. Zingers abound. Some at S&S will tell you how the artists actually like that. When I was in NY at Steinway, there was an interesting discussion involving Ron Connors and the current folks in the Selection Room, whereby when the issue came up, the pregnant pause spoke volumes about what SOME at S&S felt about that particular "desirable" trait.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Again, I would emphasize that I have nothing particularly against S&S. I like most of the S&S pianos I see. But, I don't view them as the world standard. I view them as one of the available "Tier 1" pianos. If an artist truly desires what Steinway produces in tone and touch, then by all means that should be the choice. But if the decision to choose Steinway is simply because, "well, it's a Steinway," I think that is a great tragedy.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">William R. Monroe</span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br>
</span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-size:small;font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size:16px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Brent Fischer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brent.fischer@yahoo.com" target="_blank">brent.fischer@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif"><div>hey Mr. Anderson, I appreciate your civil discourse. Mr.</div>
<div>Erwin must have hit his head prior to his foolish reply.</div><div> </div><div> I'm a baseball coach so this has to be my final response</div><div>for a little while. I'm not discounting the merit of your</div>
<div>ability to discern power differences,
I would just have to</div><div>hear it for myself. My doubt stems from knowing that</div><div>Steinway rim construction, utilizing rock maple, is the</div><div>standard for instrument projection. If you're saying the Sauter</div>
<div>utilizes a rim species of wood that is superior to maple I</div><div>have difficulty believing it. If Sauter utilizes a keybed</div><div>that accelerates resonance to the pianist without quartered</div><div>spruce slats then I have to question how.</div>
<div><br></div><div> I was able to
find a pic of the lyre you mentioned</div><div>and although the assembly pieces appear to be of acceptable</div><div>diameters the comment I made about Julliard has to do with</div><div>the support system. A steel rod bracing will always flex</div>
<div>more due to the torque applied to the outer corners of the</div><div>lyre box. This is the main reason Steinway braces with birch</div><div>sticks that are fit into the keybed. Under rigorous demands</div><div>the flexing becomes an issue and over time only worsens and the</div>
<div>pianist feels a sense of
disconnection. This is for the very same</div><div>reason I use carbon fiber soles when cycling, the rigidity of</div><div>the shoe is critical when standing up on the pedals when engaging</div><div>twelve percent climbs.</div>
<div><br></div><div> Last comment on Fine, why would you imply on a national stage</div><div>that digitals have the added advantage of not needing to be tuned.</div><div>As if the trade wasn't suffering enough already, there just went thousands</div>
<div>across the world including the technician's business card in their shredding</div><div>pile for re-cycling. At least we're going green on the way out.</div><div><br></div><div> Sincerely,</div><div><br></div>
<div> Brent Fischer</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-size:16px"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-size:16px"> </span></font></div><div><br></div><div> I went on an extended hunt for the specs on the</div>
<div>Omega and turned up little besides equilibrium formulas.</div><div>Resonance projection starts with a maple rim, it's the code.</div><div>It's hard to comment
without that much, and then I my</div><div>travels I'm I will search one out.</div><div><br></div><div> I did see a picture of the lyre. The base looks stout, however</div><div>all lyres with </div><div><br></div>
<div> </div><div><br></div> <div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif"> <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Andrew Anderson <<a href="mailto:andrew@andersonmusic.com" target="_blank">andrew@andersonmusic.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Brent Fischer <<a href="mailto:brent.fischer@yahoo.com" target="_blank">brent.fischer@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:50 PM<div class="im"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry<br> </div>
</font> </div> <br>
<div><div>Interlined below<br><div><div>On Aug 1, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Brent Fischer wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">yes, I agree if NY would utilize Hamburg plates and a workforce that</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">thought like Hamburg employees the conversation would be over. It's</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">important to quantify "quality construction " because there is simply </font></div>
<div><font face="'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif">no mistakes made in Steinway</font><span style="font-family:times,serif"> joinery, including boards and bridges.</span></div><div><font face="'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif"> Above all else, Steinway makes the only piano that doesn't blow</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">up on "FFF", and selective artists know the difference and the sound. </font></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div>Here is where I have the opposite experience. Sauter Omegas are more powerful sonically and have a much broader dynamic range than any Steinway I've encountered, and that is the semi-concert grand. Back to back on stage there is no doubt as to which is the more musical piano and that is how we shut Steinway out of institutional purchases. One Omega against one D: put them together and the difference is obvious. Steinways distort at FFF, Sauters get louder. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Now people do identify with that distortion and you can get a little from a Sauter, eventually,
if you are brutal. If you need to have it easily and can live with a smaller dynamic envelope, you should choose Steinway. Again, personal preference should determine your choice here. If you need to power up a hall though, the sound meter confirms what the ear hears: Sauters do FFF louder by wasting much less sonic energy on distortion. They carry very well.</div>
<br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">The quality of the best Euro piano made is only designed to function</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">musically up to and never above " FF ". Mason and Hamlin has
the</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">tonal substructure to support tenacious pianists however when they </font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">designed hardened steel front duplex bars they compromised
the treble tone.</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> Quality 101:</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> a. No one but Steinway makes a lyre to withstand the rigors of Julliard</font></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div>Have you seen the Sauter lyre system?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> b. only Steinway uses quartered-sawn poplar in lid construction,</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif"> like a carbon-fiber bike frame; light and strong</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">Andrew, the argument has to finish with which piano can withstand</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">the rigors of a changing upswing in the strength of modern pianists, playing</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">to crowds that come to hear " piano Olympics ". Steinway sets the bar at "FFF" and</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">you have the little F's following behind.</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times,
serif"> You wouldn't give Albert Pujols a plastic bat to hit a homer no more than you </font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">would give </font><span style="font-family:times,serif">Lang Lang a Bosendorfor to play Lizt.</span></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div>Actually a lot of what Liszt wrote sounds really good on a Bosie. I would tend to reserve a Bosie for music of a more Austrian style, Mozart, Haydn and some Beethovan. There are any number of fine piano makes that are interesting in their own right and some might be preferred for certain types of music. Steinway's aggressive (admirably successful) marketing has positioned it where it is dominant in venues here in North American but that dominance has many factors involved that aren't necessarily about
music-making.
</div><div><br></div><div>YMMV,</div><div>Andrew Anderson</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br>
</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> Sincerely,</font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> Brent Fischer</font></div>
<div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="'times new roman',
'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"> <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times,serif"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Andrew Anderson
<<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:andrew@andersonmusic.com" target="_blank">andrew@andersonmusic.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Brent Fischer <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:brent.fischer@yahoo.com" target="_blank">brent.fischer@yahoo.com</a>>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:caut@ptg.org" target="_blank">caut@ptg.org</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 1, 2012 5:22 PM<div><div class="h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry<br>
</div></div></font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <br>
<div><div>Mr. Fischer<div>When you are dealing with fine pianos you will find that they are quite individual in their characteristics and the choice of a piano becomes a personal one of preference. Teir-1 piano makers are not copying each other and don't have the same goals when it comes to sound and playing characteristics.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If you are comparing quality and consistency of manufacture Steinway NY loses, hands down. If the German can't get past union senority issues in NY, Steinway will completely undermine its iconic reputation--self destruct. I, for one, hope it does get control of its QC issues. It would be a shame to lose another American manufacturer. </div>
<div><br></div><div>That said, I don't like any of the Steinways I work with. They are getting better but they are all compromised instruments which will not be stellar until re-bellied they way they should be.
Quality control was definitely out to lunch on these Ds an Bs. </div><div><br></div><div>In my store I carry a teir-one German brand and these pianos are obviously better then any NY Steinway I work on. Every performing artist I've had over has fallen in-love with them, some of them under contractual obligation to demand another instrument at performance venues.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Unless the only Steinways you encouter are C&A stock, you have missed out on a lot of other fine brands. </div><div><br></div><div>As to Chinese made pianos, the strides being made there are rapid, much more rapid than the progress that was made by Japanese piano makers. There is a least one brand coming out of China today that is very serious competition for the Japanese makes at their better levels.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The world does not stand still. Things do change over time. Keeping track of that is an invaluable
service. I do disagree with Fine on occasion but as yet he has no credible competition for the service he provides and I do recommend his service to everyone who asks.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely,</div><div>Andrew Anderson</div>
<div><br><div><div>On Aug 1, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Brent Fischer wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"><div>Mr. Bousel,</div><div> With all due respect Aaron I don't consider my opinion a minority one.</div>
<div>Secondly, who made Mr. Fine's instrument acumen the " last word " or</div><div>his analysis the " bible " of the industry. As the last of the greatest</div><div>American made pianos fade into the sunset there will be even the </div>
<div>occasional Mason and Hamlin
growing daises in
your local dump.
The</div><div>comparison that Fine makes with the Chinese industry would leave the</div><div>laymen believing that they are just as well made as the original specs</div><div>of pianos that were light years ahead of anything made in China.</div>
<div><br></div><div> It all starts with the carcass, just have to compare and contrast with</div><div>specs that have been historically superior.
There has never been a foreign </div><div>made piano anywhere that could hold it's own on stage with a Baldwin or</div><div>Mason much less a Steinway. I don't categorize the Hamburg as foreign.</div><div><br></div>
<div> Final comment: The last time I drove over Fine's book with my truck</div><div>was when he made his biblical judgement that European instruments </div><div>are as good as our currently US made Steinways.</div>
<div>Like I said, he's not our spokesman.</div><div> </div> <div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,times,serif"> <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times,serif"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Aaron Bousel <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:abousel@comcast.net" target="_blank">abousel@comcast.net</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:caut@ptg.org" target="_blank">caut@ptg.org</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 1, 2012 3:24 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div>
<div>
Here's a link to the whole article, including a video.<br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos-last-note-is-thud-in-the-dump.html?pagewanted=all" target="_blank">
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos-last-note-is-thud-in-the-dump.html?pagewanted=all</a>
<br><br>
First: Larry is hardly responsible for the juxtaposition of his comment
and the photo of an old Knabe grand.<br>
Second: You don't know the context of his remarks, that is, what question
was asked by the reporter that elicited the quote that was used. In the
context of 80 to 100+ year old verticals it certainly fits and his
comment doesn't endorse the purchase of a digital piano, it just states
the reality of the marketplace.<br>
Third: You've "always said" that Larry Fine doesn't know what
he's talking about? OK, you're entitled to your opinion (albeit a
minority one within the industry), but don't base it on one out of
context quote from a newspaper article. <br><br>
Aaron<br><br>
At 07:25 AM 8/1/2012, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">NY Times 7-30-12.....Music
Article<br><br>
On the front page of the digital NY Times " For More
Pianos, Last Note <br>
is the Thud in the Dump"<br><br>
" Instead of spending hundreds or thousands to repair an old
piano, you<br>
can buy a new one made in China that's just as good, or you can buy a
digital<br>
one that doesn't need need tuning and has all kinds of bells and
whistles," said<br>
Larry Fine, the editor and publisher of Acoustic & Digital Buyer
" the industry bible.<br><br>
The picture seen around the world is of a vintage Knabe grand being
trashed.<br>
Confirms what I've always said, he doesn't know what he is talking
about.<br><br>
Brent Fischer<br>
30 yr. member of the PTG / Registered Craftsman / retired</blockquote>
<div>
<br>
<font face="Eras Medium ITC">
------------------------------------------<br>
Aaron Bousel<br>
Registered Piano Technician, Piano Technicians Guild<br>
</font><font face="Eras Medium ITC" color="#0000FF">
<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:info@bouselpiano.com" target="_blank">info@bouselpiano.com</a><br>
</font><font face="Eras Medium ITC"><a href="tel:%28413%29%20253-3846" value="+14132533846" target="_blank">(413) 253-3846</a> (voice &
fax)</font> </div></div>
</div><br><br> </div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br><br> </div></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br><br> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>William R. Monroe, RPT<br>A440-William R. Monroe Piano Services, Inc.<br>314 E. Church St.<br>Belleville, WI 53508<br>608-215-3250<br><a href="http://www.a440piano.net">www.a440piano.net</a><br>
</div>