<font color='navy' size='2' face='Comic Sans MS, sans-serif'>Bob <div> I agree</div> <div>Dale</div> <div><br> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13px;">So, in that that sense, changing the bore distance does not have the same effect, but it does have some effect.   </div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13px;">Bob Hull</div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13px;"><br> </div> <div style="clear:both"><font size="1" color="royalblue"><b><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><font color="black"><font color="mediumblue" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> <font color="green">Erwin's Piano Restoration Inc.</font><br> </font></font></font></b></font><font color="darkgreen"><span style="font-style: italic;"><b><font size="1"><font size="1" color="black"><font color="blueviolet"><font color="black"> <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Mason & Hamlin</font><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">/Steinway/</font><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">U.S. pianos</font><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><br> </font></font></font></font><font size="1" color="cornflowerblue" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">www.Erwinspiano.com</font><font size="1"><br> </font><font size="1" color="crimson" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Phone: 209-577-8397</font><br> <font color="darkgreen"></font></font></b></span></font><tt><tt><font color="darkgreen"><br>  </font><br>   <font size="2"></font></tt></tt><br> <br> </div> <br> <br> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_10a0b398-14ca-42ba-b26a-e0f5ca45498c"> <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"> <div><span>Greg,</span></div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span>Isn't action efficiency effected by bore distance and tone quality is supported by an efficient action.  Is that what you were clarifying?  If a hammer/shank does not travel to a point where it's transfer of energy to the string is most efficient, then tone will not be optimal.  However, this would not be the same type of tonal differentiation as moving the hammer line (strike point) in or out.  </span></div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; ">So, in that that sense, changing the bore distance does not have the same effect, but it does have some effect.   </div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; ">Bob Hull</div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Greg Newell <<a href="mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net">gnewell@ameritech.net</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, December 24, 2012 10:43 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CAUT] S&S M Strike point<br> </font> </div> <br> <div id="yiv1923557382"> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382WordSection1"> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">John, Dale, et al,</span></div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">            How would bore distance change tone where hanging distance on the shank did so previously? Dale’s line of hanging the hammers (not straight in the treble) directly affects the tone and or power of each note in that region. I fail to understand how changing bore distance would do the same thing. Dale, should your first sentence below read string height and not plate height?</span></div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">  </span></div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;">Greg</span></div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:black;">  </span></a></div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org">caut-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Erwin<br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 24, 2012 10:44 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAUT] S&S M Strike point</span></div> </div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal">  </div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">Hi John</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "> </span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">  Good to hear from you.</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "> I read your post and that wouldn't explain it as I custom bore all my hammer sets to plate heights minus center pin heights in each section. I'm quite fussy about it as N.Y Steinways are notorious for plate height un-even-ness thru out the string plane. My guess is that most of the German cousins has a better made plate.</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "> Also even if my hammers were overstriking they would be going in the right direction for improved tone.  I pull the strike line towards the front of the piano not the back. I have done this countless times always with a superior result to a straight strike line. see attached picture</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> J.D wrote--On the last two of these pianos I did, a Hamburg B and a Hamburg D, if I had used “standard bore” hammers I would simply have replicated the errors Steinway originally made and failed to rid them of the resulting weakness.  In the case of the B, the string height was 8mm. higher at one point in the middle of the scale than it was at the top.  I had to order hammers 5mm longer than the standard length and I then bored the hammers differentially to account for the arch in the strike line.  See the picture below.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Totally understood here John.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Best</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Dale</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 205); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> </span></b><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: green; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">Erwin's Piano Restoration Inc.</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 205); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "><br> </span></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">Mason & Hamlin/Steinway/U.S. pianos<br> </span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(100, 149, 237); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.Erwinspiano.com/">www.Erwinspiano.com</a></span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(0, 100, 0); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "><br> </span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(220, 20, 60); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">Phone: 209-577-8397</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(0, 100, 0); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "><br> </span></i></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 100, 0); font-family: 'Courier New'; "><br> <tt> </tt></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><br> <tt>  </tt></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; "></span></div> </div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; ">  </span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">-----Original Message-----<br> From: John Delacour <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:JD@Pianomaker.co.uk">JD@Pianomaker.co.uk</a>><br> To: caut <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">caut@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2012 2:39 pm<br> Subject: Re: [CAUT] S&S M Strike point</span></div> <div id="yiv1923557382AOLMsgPart_2_9825ebf2-2717-4e88-8f45-6c534225a226"> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><br> On 23 Dec 2012, at 20:52, Dale Erwin <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com">erwinspiano@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br> <br> </span></div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">...Also,...FWIW  I've posted many times before hanging the hammers in a straight line in any Steinway model (prior to the plate changes in the 1990s) will result in less than optimal sustain and power and... reduces clarity and tone color with the shift engaged.</span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Hello Dale, </span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">I have indeed seen you mention this before and seen pictures of the result, and it’s always occurred to me that the reason you have found this kludge necessary is that you did not custom bore the hammers for the piano but used standard bore hammers, with the result that where the strike line is grossly arched in the middle of the scale owing to Steinway’s lack of quality control, your hammers are over-striking—that is to say striking the string a few millimetres too near the termination.  This was the case with some (probably many) grands when they left the factory in the 1970s and 80s; they were never right because they were fitted with standard bore hammers.</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">On the last two of these pianos I did, a Hamburg B and a Hamburg D, if I had used “standard bore” hammers I would simply have replicated the errors Steinway originally made and failed to rid them of the resulting weakness.  In the case of the B, the string height was 8mm. higher at one point in the middle of the scale than it was at the top.  I had to order hammers 5mm longer than the standard length and I then bored the hammers differentially to account for the arch in the strike line.  See the picture below.</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">To my mind this is the only way to do the job properly.  The result is that the hammers are all glued on at 90°, the shanks are all the standard length (say 130mm) and the hammers all strike the string at 90° (or slightly before if allowance is made for future wear).  Any other device, such as canting the heads outwards or increasing the shank length I regard as a kludge, and Steinways themselves, it seems, didn’t even bother with kludges but just let the salesmen manage their faulty goods.</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">A happy Christmas and New Year to all.</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">JD</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><img border="0" width="414" height="637" id="yiv1923557382_x0030_ba76656-216e-40c1-915c-f0c701e00c77" src="cid:1.1822385637@web125903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"></span></div> <div> <div class="yiv1923557382MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">  </span></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> <br> </div> </div> </div> </div>  </div> </div> </font>