<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>I don't think you missed anything, but I think what I
failed to make clear is that he really likes this piano--though it is a
fairly indifferent and generic late 20's 5' 9-ish grand that had an
action rebuild only a few years ago. Thus, though money is indeed not
really the issue, there remained a desire to see if a proven route to
decontaminating the piano was available that didn't involve rebuilding.
My (and his) interest was in knowing if, specifically, a reliable
method for doing this existed, and what it would be, and did anyone have
experience with this. I am not under the impression that the piano
itself is suspected to be the actual source of the problem, but rather
being in the same environment, thoroughness of remediation demands that
something be done with everything in the home that could be
affected--whether actually needed or not.<br>
<br> He will undoubtedly not decide what to do until some
information/recommendation from me is forthcoming, though, again, if I
say, "buy another piano, because that's the easiest route", (and that
seems like it might be the emerging consensus) he's likely to consent,
because, of course, that option was always there. But I agreed to find
out what the CAUT community at large knew, and everyone's take on it was
of value to me, whether they thought they were addressing the central
issue or not. In fact, for me, sometimes misunderstandings can generate
new views on the proceedings that shed light where not originally
expected.<br>
<br></div>I agree that knowing what it would cost to get a professional
to assess and treat (if possible) the instrument would be of great
interest. An ozone tent was mentioned, and I'm going to follow that up a
bit out of curiosity and see what I can turn up. I'll let the list
know if anything comes of it. <br>
<br></div>He mentioned to me the idea of selling it to a friend who
knows exactly what's going on, has been in his house a lot and has no
symptoms, and wants a piano. A scenario like this could skirt the
ethics issues you bring up quite easily, and might be the only recourse
if the legal/ethical problems of trying to avoid outright destruction of
the piano became too weighty.<br>
<br></div>Greg</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:06 PM, David Skolnik <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidskolnik@optonline.net" target="_blank">davidskolnik@optonline.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Sorry if I'm missing something. If money is, as they say, 'no
object', then let him get another piano, or another house,
whatever. If money <i>is </i>'an object', then the question is,
what is the most efficacious way of determining if the piano is
contributing to his problem? Either remove the piano, temporarily
(he could rent something if need be), or wrap it. However, you
say:<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite"> I suspect he's decided
that the piano will either be treated in some tried and proven way, or be
rebuilt or replaced</blockquote><br></div>
So if he's already decided what he wants to do, it becomes an issue of
little further interest. It <i>would</i> be of interest to know how
much it would cost to have a certified individual determine the piano's
toxicity, and if any, how much it would cost to remediate (and how it
would be done). For that matter, it would of more than passing
interest to contemplate the ethics of disposing of such an
instrument. Can you sell it without disclosing your reason?
If it is contaminated, can you donate it? etc.<br><br>
It reminds me of my experience (which I've cited before) dealing with a
piano that had been treated with (what turned out to be) Paris Green, a
substance containing arsenic, which had been used, especially in the
south, to control insects. Once officially identified (by village
fire department), the legitimate (legal) recourse asserted itself.
A company was brought in to inspect, and subsequently advised removing
(and disposing of) the piano, a step which, frankly, had I continued to
be involved in the process, I would have at the very least,
challenged. I retain some degree of skepticism. <br><br>
My last word: whatever.<br><br>
David Skolnik<div><div class="h5"><br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
At 02:26 PM 1/10/2013, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">David, <br>
You're correct, there was no mention of water damage. The house is
fine from that perspective, as far as anyone knows. As I said to
James in my response to him, the issue is probably the Humboldt climate
well known for dampness, especially along the coast where we are.
He is a musician, records, gigs, and uses the piano frequently, though as
he is more a wind player and guitarist, and associates are more likely to
use the piano than he in actual rehearsals and so forth.<br>
All your suggestions are useful, but I suspect moving the piano to a
different local in the house probably isn't going to fly, since I suspect
he's decided that the piano will either be treated in some tried and
proven way, or be rebuilt or replaced. No one has any idea
whether the piano is even infected; they just want to cover all the bases
in <br>
the most direct way possible. I'm getting the feeling--as others
have suggested--that the simplest thing is to replace it, period.
<br>
I'm going to check in with this guy very soon about what I'm learning
here. <br><br>
I'm not familiar with the ozone tent Andrew speaks of. Any idea
what it is/does? Andrew?<br><br>
Thanks very much for everyone's help!<br>
Greg<br><br>
<br><br>
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:52 AM, David Skolnik
<<a href="mailto:davidskolnik@optonline.net" target="_blank">
davidskolnik@optonline.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd>Greg, James -<br>
</dd><dd>Without getting into technical details beyond my immediate knowledge,
the data seems somewhat incomplete. I may have missed something,
but I don't understand the basis for James assumption that the piano
suffered water damage. It would be interesting to know the
suspected cause of the mold, i.e. a water leak, flooding, Humbolt
climate? Does he use the piano? Can the piano be moved to a
part of the house that he doesn't frequent, to see if that makes a
difference? If his condition suddenly improves, that would narrow
it down a bit. I would be wary of going immediately the off-site
'expert evaluation' route, partly for the initial expense (it can't be
cheap, unless the wife does it herself or knows someone), and then
question of what to do, based upon the assessment results. I
suppose you could move it off-site to do a thorough cleaning (or take it
out in the back on a sunny day - whenever that might be- and blow it
out). <br><br>
</dd><dd>It would be interesting to see (photo) how the house has been
cleansed without eliminating all elements of comfort.<br><br>
</dd><dd>David Skolnik<br><br>
<br>
</dd><dd>At 11:32 AM 1/10/2013, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<dd>Greg,<br>
</dd><dd> Of all the things that are be almost impossible to
remove from a piano without rebuilding, mildew and mold are at the top of
the list. It is more difficult then smoke and smoke odor There
simply is not a way to clean it out without removing and replacing parts.
You have a living organism that is not just sitting there, is is
growing If I were in your place I wold first have the piano removed
to a water damage restoration specialist and let is sit in an
uncontaminated area for evaluation and then decide the next step from
there. Most of the time you can see it but not always.
Getting the input from some folks that deal with it on a regular basis is
helpful.<br>
</dd><dd>Yours<br>
</dd><dd>James Schmitt<br>
</dd><dd>On Jan 9, 2013, at 8:57 AM, Gregory J. Granoff wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<dd>David,<br>
</dd><dd>I'm not sure what the story is on discovery there, but his wife is a
long time professional allergist, and they have come quite a distance
already in getting rid of all furniture and permeable surfaces in the
house (carpeting, etc.), cleaning, painting, etc., with no turning
back. I'm not going to say anything about finding what you tend to
look for, if you know what I mean; but he did develop some pretty
unpleasant symptoms when he's in his house--difficulty regulating body
temp, feelings of mild atrophy in extremities, and mental cloudiness,
among others, according to him.<br>
</dd><dd>The question really is now: what do with the piano. He's
aware--assuming that all this other stuff is correct-- that the piano
might need to be replaced entirely, so it isn't a question of that being
do-able if necessary. <br>
</dd><dd>He just wants to know if that route is the only choice, and if it
isn't, what are the realistic options for the existing piano?<br>
</dd><dd>Thanks,<br>
</dd><dd>Greg<br><br>
<br>
</dd><dd>On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:08 AM, David Skolnik
<<a href="mailto:davidskolnik@optonline.net" target="_blank">
davidskolnik@optonline.net</a>> wrote:
<dl>
<dd>Greg -
</dd><dd>How was the original mold assessment made? How is the rest of
his house being treated? Did a reliable expert locate the primary
source, and reason for its presence? <br>
</dd><dd>David Skolnik<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</dd><dd>At 12:26 PM 1/8/2013, you
wrote:<blockquote type="cite">
<dd>Hello list,
</dd><dd>I'm looking for info regarding a customer who has been diagnosed with
a serious allergy to poisonous mold spores that have apparently infected
his house. He asked me whether there was any way to treat permeable
surfaces such as felt, unfinished wood, etc. in pianos for the spores
which can lodge there that didn't involve replacing everything. I
have no experience with this issue at all. Anybody know?<br>
</dd><dd>Thanks so much in advance for any advice and knowledge!<br>
</dd><dd>Greg Granoff
</dd><dd>Humboldt State University<br>
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</div></div><dd><div><div class="h5">No virus found in this message.<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>