<html> <body> Hi, Alan, At 09:29 AM 10/22/2003 -0700, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Thanks Don,   In part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between friction and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal difference between a note that has a friction problem vs one that has a firmness problem?</blockquote> Yes - please see my earlier post with examples (10.Oct.03). Lance also makes an important observation in re: noise - (paraphrased) that it is often much less obvious farther away than up close.  I would go a step farther and suggest that damping out too much of what might be thought of as noise can be counterproductive.  I have heard many relatively "clean" pianos that simply did not carry, depending on many things, of course, out into a venue. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>My normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes checking action center friction, duh, and I check side to side play gang-style checking for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see if someone has figured out a way to systematically check for both friction and firmness in an efficient way (ie without painstakingly removing every flange!!)</blockquote> Yes - please. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>  Alan   PS Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-)   Hope things are great down there in Modesto.</blockquote> Hmmm - well, sending to Marcia may be cheating, but it also might be very good business practice. Best. Horace <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite> <dl> <dd>-----Original Message----- <dd>From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>]On Behalf Of Don Mannino <dd>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11 AM <dd>To: caut@ptg.org <dd>Subject: FW: Pinning and Tone <dd>Alan, <dd>  <dd>The tone of the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has a pretty distinctive sound to it.  I would describe it as a thin and weak tone.  Checking the friction level in a thin sounding note, repinning it, and listening will tell you a lot. <dd>  <dd>Experience is the best teacher here.  I don't have a specification to tell you, except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone by ear.  I suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though.  X amount of deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the pin. <dd>  <dd>Don Mannino <dd>  <dd>  <dd>-----Original Message----- <dd>From: Alan McCoy [<a href="mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu" eudora="autourl">mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu</a>] <dd>Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:24 PM <dd>To: College and University Technicians <dd>Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone <dd>Hi Bob, <dd>  <dd>Well OK. Thing of it is, do you know the specs here. How much deflection per how much side pressure? I'm guessing that the only test people really use to check side play is the old screwdriver blade, or brass rod, under the shanks gang style to check for winking hammers indicating a loose center pin bushing. This is a good test, but it is neither definitive nor quantitative, right? Also, whether a loose center shows up on this test depends in part on how smooth the rod is as well as how loose a bushing is. <dd>  <dd>Do you have a different method to test for firmness of bushings? <dd>  <dd>Alan McCoy <dd>-----Original Message----- <dd>From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl">mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org</a>]On Behalf Of BobDavis88@aol.com <dd>Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:21 PM <dd>To: caut@ptg.org <dd>Subject: Re: Pinning and Tone <dd>In a message dated 10/15/2003 11:33:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, amccoy@mail.ewu.edu writes: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite> <dd>But how does one test for firmness in any <dd>quantitative, definitive way?</blockquote> <dd>I'd say with side play. That's what Steinway is doing in addition to friction measurement: measuring the amount of deflection with a known amount of side pressure. Same objection - it only measures both sides at once, but it provides a go - no-go gauge. <dd>Bob Davis </dl></blockquote></body> </html>