<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="MARGIN: 4px 4px 1px; FONT: 10pt Tahoma" = bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>Interesting thread on these action = motion pictures. I've heard of such movie made at Polytechnic school in Paris = also. I am supposed to view them one of those days (I can ask for more details).</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>I've heard of the bending of the = shank/head at the joint, I believe that over centering hammers is used as a process = to avoid too much breaking of the continuity hammer/shank at that = place  Kawai are slightly over centering for what I've seen (???)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>Thinning the shanks does not seem = to give a thicker tone, but more predominance of lower partials, known as 'whip = effect' but the tone being more immediate is also less evolving in = time.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>The action resistance, or what is = perceived as weight by the pianist, is IMHO mostly a result of action = compression. I'd like to know when it begin to occur, but from what I feel when = regulating it seem to be at relatively low speeds.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>The other resistance due to the = mass and weight of parts is IMHO again mostly perceived only at the beginning of = the stroke , during a very short moment</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>For sure any weight added on the = hammer will push the bending of the shank in its limits.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>I believe that we don't need = too much weigh in the piano action, as when properly regulated, the weight = appears when necessary i.e. under faster or heavier banging, just by the mean of = action compression and changes in synchronisms of the parts = move/stops.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>That is exactly what a fine = regulation mean, using the touch /feel of the action to allow the larger response from it = under different form of touch.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>All assist springs, = counterbalancing weights, impede the speed and change the mass properties in an = unpredictable manner (at this moment)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>I am more and more convinced = that there is a certain range of configuration adequate, ratio and action spread = vs. heaviness of hammer, but the window is less large that one believe I'd say.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>What seem to miss is a way to = ascertain at what moment the good heaviness or BW is useful, and at what moment/under = what configuration it's presence is not adding something but a supplementary sensation that we don't know what to do with it.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>another thought is that it have = been generally proved that a too large evenness is not adequate for musical instruments, evenness of tone, evenness of touch, etc...</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>For some reason that seem to = lessen the pleasure of playing. I've seen kind of instruments where this was perceptible.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>May be because pleasure is related = to surprize, a too predictable instrument give less joy to master (up to = some point) When a pianist use a new instrument he made a mental map of it = and his brain use these informations when playing, may be a too liear feedback = does not exite the little brain celles (the one related to circles of sound) much = !</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>A last but not least, is that many = makers use a slightly different key ratio on sharps  whites. When seeing = that thru the BW equation this looks like an error, but up to some point the = sharps can have this faster answer, because the finger position on the white keys = is more often on the middle of the key than on the edge. The white keys are then = more feeling as heavy than the black ones. Nowadays that's un attempt to = master that problem, and moving the sharps capstan line, does not even the touch = even under even BW parameters, as the acceleration of the sharps is then of course different from the whites.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>The ratio diff white./sharps  = that shows up with the weight method may be acceptable if it allows an even = balance when measuring the weight at the playing position on the whites , = something around 2.5 cm from the edge of the key, or a percentage of their head's length.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>Sorry I am not that good for = re-writing, just put one phrase after another. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>Thanks as always for your insights.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003>Isaac OLEG</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=660014521-14112003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <STYLE>  </STYLE> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD> <TABLE height=80 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 = align=right border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=tiny> <TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: = #666666 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: = #666666 1px solid" height="100%" cellSpacing=0 width=320> <TBODY> <TR bgColor=#ffffff> <TD class=tiny width="100%" height=1> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" = border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=logotext style="PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"></TD> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; = FONT-SIZE: 7pt" = align=right>Pianomania</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD> <TD class=tiny></TD></TR> <TR> <TD colSpan=2> <TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=2 width="100%" = align=right border=0> <TBODY> <TR style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 4px" height=1> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-LEFT: 4px" vAlign=top><B>Isaac OLEG</B><BR><I>accordeur - = reparateur - concert</I> </TD> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px" = vAlign=top align=right><A class=psl = href="http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=19+rue+Jul= es+Ferry&csz=94400+VITRY+sur+SEINE&country=us" target=_blank>19 rue Jules Ferry<BR>94400 = VITRY sur SEINE</A> </TD></TR> <TR height=1> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4px" vAlign=bottom><A class=psl = href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr" target=_blank>oleg-i@noos.fr</A> </TD> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4px" vAlign=bottom align=right> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 align=right border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=noro noWrap align=right>tel: = <BR>fax: <BR>mobile: </TD> <TD class=noro style="PADDING-LEFT: 4px" = noWrap align=right>033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>33 01 47 = 18 06 90<BR>033 06 60 42 58 77 = </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></T= ABLE></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-y" vAlign=top = width=6 = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_right_middle.gif height="100%"> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat" width=6 = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_right_top.gif height=7> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR> <TR> <TD class=tiny style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_bottom_middle.gif> <TABLE class=tiny cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 = width="100%" align=right border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=tiny style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat" = vAlign=top width=8 = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_bottom_left.gif height=6></TD> <TD class=tiny style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" = vAlign=top = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_bottom_middle.gif height=6> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD> <TD class=tiny style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat" = vAlign=top width=7 = background=http://www.plaxo.com/images/card_shadow2_bottom_right_corner= .gif height=6></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR> <TR> <TD colSpan=2> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD align=left><A class=brand = href="http://www.plaxo.com/signature/" target=_blank><I>Powered by Plaxo</I></A></TD> <TD align=right><A class=brand href="http://www.plaxo.com/signature/" = target=_blank><I>Want a signature like = this?</I></A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px = solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> = caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part de</B> Richard Brekne<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> vendredi 14 novembre 2003 15:45<BR><B>À :</B> traylorg@equaltemperament.com; College = and University Technicians<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: Digital cameras (Piano Action)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>  <P>"Garret E. Traylor" wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <SPAN = class=705470413-14112003></SPAN><SPAN class=705470413-14112003><FONT face=Arial><FONT = color=#000080><FONT size=+0>This sounds like we could keep some graduate students very = busy....personally I don't know anything about physics or = mathematics.  But, surely some time/motion study based from this improved filming technology could reveal some very interesting = data. </SPAN><SPAN class=705470413-14112003>"INERTIA relating to Piano Action = Geometry: The Qualitative and Quantitative analysis of Non-Rigid components."</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=705470413-14112003></SPAN><SPAN = class=705470413-14112003><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=+0>Garret</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Stephen Birkett is working out something along these lines. = Myself I am not so sure we need to get all that deep into the math/physics side of = this... We do need to be aware of the affects of various weight / ratio = configurations on any given degree of action compliance, and Del is right... that is = not being taken into consideration by many now. <P>When Stanwood puts a set of monster hammers on an action, and drops = the ratio down to 5.0 or lower.. (I think his personal record is a 4.8 = BWRatio) he doesnt worry about how much that actions felt compresses, how stiff = the keys are... how much flex there is in the shank... etc etc. Nor does he do = so for a 6.0 BWRatio with top medium hammers. He just balances things out = according to his predetermined specs dictated by the Balance Equation. <P>Yet it seems clear that the net compliance of any action is going = to change for various configurations, and that definatly affects how the action = feels, how it delivers its punch to the strings, and utlimatly how the voice = of the instrument sounds. <BR> So... while Static Balance can provide us = with exactly a static balanced action.... it's less then << all we = can easily do >> without some method of putting this into a compliance = perspective. <P>More or less the same kind of argumentation can be said about = inertia. Heck... seems to me that we dont really consider whats happening with = the employment of assist mechanisms conciously enough. <BR>  <P>Cheers <BR>RicB <BR>  <P>Delwin D Fandrich wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> The bending spaghetti is the hammer shank with the hammer trying to = hold on. And then there is even more maccaroni if you start with the = flexing key. At the time between when the key is hit and the time the hammer = finally hits the string I have already eaten part of the = salad.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV dir=ltr>Hans Sander</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT = color=#000080><FONT size=+0>And yet we insist on discussing action geometry as if = the various components were all infinitely rigid and had zero inertia.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT = color=#000080><FONT size=+0>Del</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its a good baseline... but I agree... not much good in the = end left to itself. <P>RicB</P></BLOCKQUOTE>-- <BR>Richard Brekne <BR>RPT, N.P.T.F. = <BR>UiB, Bergen, Norway <BR><A href="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</A> = <BR><A = href="http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html">http://home.broad= park.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html</A> <BR><A = href="http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html">http://www.hf.uib= .no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html</A> <BR>  </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>