<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content=Word.Document name=ProgId> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR> <META content="Microsoft Word 10" name=Originator><LINK href="cid:filelist.xml@01C384FE.50D064A0" rel=File-List><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType> <STYLE> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </STYLE> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US style="tab-interval: .5in" vLink=blue link=blue> <DIV>Jim:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 70 grams (though you didn't mention where that was), achieving an acceptable touchweight by reducing hammer weight and adding key weight will not likely do it without other negative consequences.  Assuming you are at 70 grams in the middle, that would mean adding one full lead to the middle of the key (net about 6-7 grams) and taking 2 grams off the hammer weight to get you between 50 and 55.  While I don't have enough data to say for sure, it looks like a poorly located capstan, too short a knuckle dimension or both.   I like friction to measure out around 14 or 15 grams in the bass down to about 9 or 10 grams in the treble, depending on hammer weight.  That implies some friction in the flange.  I don't see how 27 swings can not involve some sideplay.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>David Love</DIV> <DIV><A href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">davidlovepianos@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: <A title=jim_busby@byu.edu href="mailto:jim_busby@byu.edu">Jim Busby</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=caut@ptg.org href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: 9/27/2003 12:50:35 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=Section1> Thanks Ric.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Steinway’s standard used to be “less than 4 grams” but seems to have changed. Now it’s not one of grams or swings but “as close to zero friction as possible with no side play.” This seems to be a recent change and I was told that Steinway has some kind of new system to achieve this. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I did repin a few and it regulates well, but DW is now about 70. Changing hammer weight (strike weight) and adjusting front weight, etc. will bring it to what I want, but then I’ve changed their design and essentially voided warranty. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You’re right about sound. It does make a difference, and their way seems to sound great. It just seems weird, and against what I’ve heard for years.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I’ll try it. I’m fairly opened minded.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Thanks again,<o:p></o:p> <st1:PersonName>Jim Busby</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Richard Brekne Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:28 PM To: College and University Technicians Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma <o:p> </o:p>   <o:p></o:p> Jim Busby wrote: <o:p></o:p> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" TYPE="CITE"> List, <o:p></o:p> I am NOT bashing here...I love Steinways, but I have a dilemma. (BTW, I just finished prepping and tuning 12 "out of the box" 1098's and they are indeed wonderful instruments! None of the former problems.) (Hurray!) <o:p></o:p> Here is a new question concerning pinning on the 8 new grands I have. (2 D's, 3 B's, 2 M's, and an S.) Hammer flange pinning is around 1-2 grams! (From 20 to 37 swings) I was ready to repin, since they simply don't check without roughing the tails (which I believe shouldn't be the solution) Steinway says that they have a new flange design to try to "totally", as far as possible, reduce friction there. They advertise it as "permafree" (scary) because of the Teflon impregnated into the bushing cloth. They say that as long as there is no side play 37 swings is OK. But is it???  <o:p></o:p></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm... assuming the hammers follow a solid path towards the string, even in hard play... it should be ok.... aside from the general discussion about whether or not a certain amount of friction is a good thing. That said...  seems like an awwwwwfull lot of swings... 25 +.... hard to imagine thats not because of overly loose pins. I get quite an improvement with useing teflon powder in bushings... and have experienced solid pinning at 12 swings or so on occasion... but thats not any where near what you are describing.   <o:p></o:p> You can make the action work by making sure rep. spring is not too strong and by periodically roughing the tails, but conventional wisdom says we need proper friction in the right places to make an action feel and work correctly. Right?? Any thoughts on this?<o:p></o:p> I like a certain amount of friction... 10 grams or so seems very comfortable... but then I'm rather conservative with actions. Friction can serve as a brake... keeps the fly away hammer syndrom from getting to carried away. Tho admitedly... my call on this is pretty subjective in nature.   <o:p></o:p> Since they are under warranty I will do as I was taught at Steinway, but my gut feeling is to repin the rail, lighten the hammers, etc. to achieve proper touchweight, and spend the next ten years working on pianos that feel "right" to me.<o:p></o:p> Would be interested in hearing a follow up on these <<permafree>> bushings... what you think of them as you go through changing and servicing them over the next few months. <o:p></o:p> I've consulted with 2 other techs who are top notch by any standard and they totally agree with me. However, two Steinway techs say their system works. How do I justify the two seemingly opposing systems and make the pianos work to my standards without bucking Steinway? Have any of you faced this yet?  <o:p></o:p> Steinways official line is that these should exhibit 10 - 35 swings ??... let them go for a while if that be... and see how well they perform... change one or two if you think its the right thing to do and compare. Loose pins cause sloppy sound... weak and falsy... you know it when you hear it.   <o:p></o:p> Thanks, Jim Busby RPT BYU <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives"></A> <o:p></o:p> -- Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. UiB, Bergen, Norway <A href="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</A> <A href="http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html">http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html</A> <A href="http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html">http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html</A>  <o:p></o:p></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>