<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><SPAN class=176164823-23102003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Thanks, Joe, David, I guess we have examined all the = possibilities now ;>)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=176164823-23102003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Bests</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Isaac OLEG<BR><BR>Entretien et réparation de pianos.<BR><BR>PianoTech<BR>17 rue de Choisy<BR>94400 VITRY sur SEINE<BR>FRANCE<BR>tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>fax : 033 01 47 18 06 = 90<BR>cell: 06 60 42 58 77 </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> = caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part de</B> Joe And Penny Goss<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> jeudi 23 octobre 2003 = 19:02<BR><B>À :</B> College and University Technicians<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: Pinning = and Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With one handle or without = one</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Joe Goss<BR><A href="mailto:imatunr@srvinet.com">imatunr@srvinet.com</A><BR><A = href="http://www.mothergoosetools.com">www.mothergoosetools.com</A></DI= V> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ilvey@sbcglobal.net = href="mailto:ilvey@sbcglobal.net">David's Email</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=oleg-i@noos.fr = href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">oleg-i@noos.fr</A> ; <A = title=caut@ptg.org href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, = 2003 9:24 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pinning and = Tone</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With a handle</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David I.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=oleg-i@noos.fr href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">Isaac sur = Noos</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org = href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University = Technicians</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, = 2003 12:56 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pinning and = Tone</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial = color=#0000ff size=2>Don Mannino, hello,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial = color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial = color=#0000ff size=2>I noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take = too much play in the pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the = bushing grows, the part can't swell because of the material, and when = getting dry after, some play is installed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial = color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003>I came to a few pianos where the = birseye itself have developped ovalisation with time (1978 models)</SPAN>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>S<SPAN = class=443194907-23102003>o, while I like a lot the grand jack, I am far from convinced with the other = parts, for instance noise and extra friction on RX... grand whippen lever, = kind of feeling the weight and texture of the damper lever in RX series.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs= p;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003>ABS does not give as tone, only thump. And I regret this, because I appreciate = your grands, after having installed in them firm Yamaha front punchings = (discard those cotton style punchings !) and regulate them so the = touch is more light, they tone very well generally (I mean for the soundboard/strings/hammers parts)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs= p;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>By = the way are the broaches you sell to be used without a handle ?.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs= p;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003>Best Regards.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs= p;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON= T size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT = color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON= T size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT = color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs= p;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Isaac OLEG<BR><BR>Entretien et réparation de pianos.<BR><BR>PianoTech<BR>17 rue de Choisy<BR>94400 VITRY sur SEINE<BR>FRANCE<BR>tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>fax : 033 01 47 18 = 06 90<BR>cell: 06 60 42 58 77 </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part = de</B> Don Mannino<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> mercredi 22 octobre 2003 19:20<BR><B>À :</B> College and University Technicians<BR><B>Objet :</B> RE: Pinning and Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>I = see what you're getting at.  I don't know of any simple answer to troubleshooting the friction other than removing parts and = testing for friction.  You can do general troubleshooting by swinging = the action to find the loosest and tightest parts, and you can = measure down and upweight to get general friction levels, but removing parts = and feeling the softness of the bushing and checking the friction = with a spring gauge are really the definitive way to know what's up.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Here = are some pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give you any real = helpful procedures to follow:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- = Too much friction causes a dull tone with poor projection and sometimes = poor sustain.  It affects the action performance as well, of course.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- = Too little friction causes no problems in tone at all <U>in and of itself</U>.  It is only because we are using cloth bushings = that low friction results in poor tone because the hammer is not = controlled in its motion well enough.  Please understand me here - if = you have a very, very firm bushing that will pin with low friction = and still have excellent side control, the tone should be fine.  It = is the limitation of using a soft bushing material that forces us to = pin with sufficient friction to get the control we need.  It is not = the friction itself which gives good tone - it is the firmness of = the bushing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- = Teflon bushings gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they didn't = last long enough.  They were an excellent idea, but the bushing = material was not nearly as durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed with = use and got noisy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- = Poor quality cloth forces us to use more friction in the center to get the = controlled motion of the hammer.  I used to work on some grand pianos = in the 80s that came from the factory with very poor, spongy cloth in = the hammer centers.  I would re-size the bushings with water = and alcohol, then repin from the factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 = pins.  This made thinner, firmer bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - = 4 grams friction, and resulted in dramatically improved tone.  = These pianos were dull and lifeless from the factory with 6 to 10 grams = friction in the soft hammer centers, and a firm fit with lower friction = really made them sing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>So, = when evaluating friction levels in a given piano, I judge by sound = and by feel of the parts, and decide how to work with them.  Now I = work mostly with Kawai parts, and the bushings are very firm with = mostly excellent control of the hammer.  In dry climates they = sometimes get too thin in tone because the hammer center bushings dry out = and become too loose, and repinning them to fit the climate brings = the power back up in the tone.  I find that if I pin for good solid tone in the mid treble, that same friction level is = great for the whole piano.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Don Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr = align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original = Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alan McCoy [mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, = October 22, 2003 9:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> College and University Technicians<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pinning and Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Thanks Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>In part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between friction and firmness in the bushing. = Can you hear the tonal difference between a note that has a friction = problem vs one that has a firmness problem?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>My normal procedure in reconditioning an = action includes checking action center friction, duh, and I check side to side = play gang-style checking for winking hammers, but I'm looking = around to see if someone has figured out a way to systematically check for = both friction and firmness in an efficient way (ie without = painstakingly removing every flange!!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Alan</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>PS Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-)   Hope things are great down there in Modesto.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #800000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr = align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On = Behalf Of </B>Don Mannino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 22, 2003 = 8:11 AM<BR><B>To:</B> caut@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> FW: Pinning = and Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr = align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2></FONT></DIV><SPAN = class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT = color=#000080>The tone of the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has a = pretty distinctive sound to it.  I would describe it as a thin = and weak tone.  Checking the friction level in a thin = sounding note, repinning it, and listening will tell you a lot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT = color=#000080>Experience is the best teacher here.  I don't have a specification = to tell you, except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone = by ear.  I suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though.  X amount of deflection with Y amount of force = applied Z distance from the pin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT = color=#000080>Don Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT = color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO= CKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>