<HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"= > <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="MARGIN: 4px 4px 1px; FONT: 10pt Tahoma"> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Bill,</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">I didn't know you were working on an = 1830s/or earlier instrument. You'll have to have some</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">downbearing I'd think to get a decent = approximation of a new 1830s Erard. Perhaps you could</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">measure some modern Graf reproductions to = see. Not that they are the same as Erards. I'm</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">not sure how much information is availble on = Erard scales, hammers, and all that. If your</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">instrument is nearly intact, then all you = have to do is a lot of measuring and weighing. That</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">would put you in the ball park. Hopefully = you can visit the Met Museum in NYC and have a look</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">if your write the curator. You might want to = consult with Stephen Burkett, or Margret Hood</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">while you're at it. They may have some = figures for you.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Does an 1830s Erard have buckskin covered = hammers?</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Or were you talking about the Steinway = type II??...I think you still need enough downbearing, and you</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">should be able to get the info on that from = the Steinway factory. Their books go way, way back.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">A nice letter usually produces positive = results. I'm not sure if their "historian" is still there. I</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">forget his name, now. A nice fellow.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV></DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Yes, no doubt Liszt did prefer the Erards of = the 1820s ~IN~ the 1820s. Probably it was the more robust of</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">all the instruments available to him.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">But, can you honestly think that when Liszt = was playing or hearing his pupils play his own</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">music on his 1870s/80s Boesendorfers (in = Budapest), or his Bechstein (in Weimar) or his huge Chickering  of = 1867 (in Budapest)or  his Steinway he thought to himself = "hmmm....this is not the sound world I thought of when composing these = pieces...this is all wrong....they have to try an 1826 Erard to get the = idea of how my music goes and what it means....they are really missing out = here, etc..."? </DIV></DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">This past summer I toured w/a forte-pianist = as technician for a week. Her instrument was more of</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">the ca 1800 Mozart - Hadyn type...a Stein = replica. I don't remember the compass. I must say it was nice (but = for the treble)....buckskin hammers make a wonderful sound on these light = strung near-harpsichord-weight instruments.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">The action is so light you can play fast = without impediment.  But the tone is rather small. It was double = strung and nice to tune. Sustain in the treble is very short, and not what = I'd call an asset.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">A Liszt piece would be easy on something = like this. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">If an 1830s Erard is as light but superior = treble, then I can see how it might be worth</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">trying some Liszt on for the "experience".</D= IV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">The basses on all these pianos I've listened = to prior to the 1850s are rather thin or light  or shallow compared = to today's or even to an 1850s piano. This might change the voicing = relationships in the Transcendental Etudes or make a Hungarian Rhapsody = more Cembolom-like. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">The pianist I toured with is looking for an = Erard from mid 1820s-35 I think she said. I can</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">pass along any info anyone has about finding = one to restore. I believe she said someone donated</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">one to them, but it was not early enough, = and needs a complete restoration. She's trying to</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">raise some money for that.</DIV></DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">One of the links I put on my original post = will take you to an article about an original Liszt  owned Erard</DIV>= <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">in the Met Museum (NYC)...but I don't think = any recordings of it are available. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">I have the recordings w/Emaual AX  of = Chopin on an Erard....(the piano is from 1851; still too new) ...= this piano is very modern in sound to my ears....I also did not hear = any great revelations</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">(from the performer, or the piano) to = convince me of the need to perform Chopin (or Liszt) for</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">that matter on an antique piano or a modern = reproduction from this period.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Sadly, I don't think anyone is going to = reproduce an 1830 Erard/or Pleyel. We really don't know what they sounded = like new, do we?</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">We do have reproductions of pianos that = Schumann  would have played, the Graf, and can even hear the = difference between an antique and reproduction. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Yes, my antique keyboard loving friends, = there is a CD recorded on Clara Schumanns Hammer-Flugel!</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">(And I have it).... These reproductions are = very pricey, as much as</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">a modern grand. One had better be very = serious about playing if they are thinking of getting such an = instrument. This is hardly the casual instrument we all meet when tuning = away from the academy.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">I do feel that the pianos Schumann would = have used, the Viennese pianos, and those earlier Broadwoods Beethoven = used, all present a very big contrast and are revelatory more so than = the "modern" sounds of an 1851 Erard for example.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">You can play Liszt on one of these, and get = the idea of what Liszt sounded like when playing</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">a Graf....and he would have probably = (possibly) played Clara's as would have Brahms, and</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">other illustrious musicians (Joachim et = al).</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">The CD I have of pianos from 1800 to 1830s = shows a consistency in that the instruments though made</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">by different makers are incredibly sweet. = They have charm. Some have better trebles than others. The later in the = 1800s you get, the closer the sound is to a modern grand. By 1851(as the = Ax recording shows), the piano approaches modern sounds, and perhaps when = new, this piano was even more modern sounding.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Liszt did have in his collection of = instruments a Broadwood that once belonged to Beethoven. Liszt = would</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">have toured England using Broadwoods. (I = don't think he was too happy with them.)Perhaps that would be instructive. = YOu could hear what Liszt's music would have sounded like in England at = the time. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Last year there was another rebuilt = "restored" Erard concert grand on Pianomart for about $10-12K down = south somewhere, it might still be on there. [I wonder if the rebuilder = put in genuine Abel- Erard hammers</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">from the factory, or if they used "Royal = George" Erard hammers?] This piano would have been</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">too "new" for "authentic Liszt", not being = from the 1830s or earlier.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">All kidding aside, I would like to have an = Erard from the 1830s if it has a good sustain and good treble. (Whatever = that means.) Only a reproduction, or perhaps one with a new board and = "some" downbearing</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">will give us an approximation of those old = days. A board that old would need to be examine</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">very carfully.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">What the tone of an 1828 Erard was like I = don't know yet. Was it as robust as the 1859 or 1878 instrument? </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">I'm pretty sure it was sweeter than a modern = piano, though.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">We can hear the consistency in the Steinway = pianos from 1859 to the present. Was it the same with</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Erard?</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">A much nicer Erard recording can be heard on = the Opal CD of Frances Plante( <FONT size=-1>1839-19= 34</FONT>)... who as you</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">all know counted Liszt among his friends. = This Erard, though, sounds pretty much like a modern concert grand ( = because ha,ha....it is!!!).  </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">As you know so many of Chopin's works were = composed on a "cottage" piano in</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Majorca...so do you have to go there and = play one of these ( a new repro, ofcourse) to "get into" his "sound = world"?</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">I think there are intellecutuals out there, = and then there are "intellectuatuals" out there....these are</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">the same people who are stopping spelling = bees because they are adverse to the "No Child Left Behind"</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">law...and should be listened to.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">As CAUT,though, we are probably caught up in = tuning modern pianos, and these excursions to the past</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">however interesting will not change our = present preference for the modern grand in the music</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">of Liszt, Chopin or Brahms. </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Best of luck with your antique projects....ho= pe it comes out to your liking.</DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000"> </DIV> <DIV style="COLOR: #000000">Richard</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:39:18 -0500<BR>From: Bdshull@aol.com<BR>= To: caut@ptg.org (College and University Technicians)<BR>Subject: Re: = [CAUT]  Liszt, historical pianos et. al.disccusion and links<BR> =    (long)<BR>Message-ID: <4EC08AFD.79DDE5A3.0015DA86@aol.com&g= t;<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<BR>MIME-Version: = 1.0<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit<BR>Precedence: list<BR>Message: = 6<BR><BR>Hi, Richard,<BR><BR>Thanks for you incredibly entertaining = post!  <BR><BR>While Liszt did endorse, own and play a multitude of = pianos throughout his life, the piano of choice during his "recitalizing" = and composing years was the Erard.   His "sound world" as a = pianist and composer was informed by all the brands he came into contact = with (and there was a great variety in the first half of the nineteenth = century). But since the Erard was his preferred instrument through the = early 50's, it was his primary point of reference.<BR><BR>This is why I = believe in the importance of replicating the Erard, preferably an = instrument similar to the one donated by our colleague David Moore (who = died in a plane crash a couple years ago) to the National Music Museum:<BR>= <BR>NMM 5984. Grand piano by Erard, Paris, 1849. AAA-a4 (7 octaves). Two = pedals: una corda, dampers. Gift of David Moore, Jacksonville, Texas, = 1996.<BR><BR>David made sure to tell me that he had restrung and rehammered= this piano, and that it was no longer original.   But this 1849 = Erard was the largest compass Erard built to date, one of the first 85 = note pianos built.  It can accomodate all of Liszt's literature, = while faithfully representing his earlier material too, since the design = remained similar for the 25 years leading up to 1849. <BR><BR>I don't know = what the treble will sound like on a replica Erard, but I would love to = know.  Your very entertaining description of the Erard in the = recording isn't the reaction of everyone (my musicology professor loved = the sound of the  Erard restored by David Winston in the recent = Emmanuel Ax Chopin recordings - but he has a more open mind than most...&nb= sp; :)<BR><BR>I still hold out hope we will get more from the treble when = the belly is new and the string is deflected (I haven't found any = documentation for crown or bearing for Erard, but I haven't looked too = hard, and would love to find it), but it seems obvious Erard would have = deflected the string some, and a new belly must sound different than an = old one in the treble, no?<BR><BR>Loved your post...!<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR><B= R><BR>>As far as Liszt goes, he owned at one time or another many = brands of<BR>>pianos. He wrote<BR>>many endorsements on their worth, = among them:<BR>>Chickering,Bosendorfer,Erard,Bechstein,Steinway, = Ibach.<BR>>Perhaps the upright at Weimar.is an Ibach. There are several = accounts<BR>>in various books of how<BR>>he taught and on what = pianos he played. Fascinating reading.<BR>> <BR>>His last pianos at = Weimar were an upright, and a Bechstein concerrt<BR>>grand. He played = the upright to demonstrate on, and his pupils performed<BR>>on the = Bechstein.  There are some photos that<BR>>can be seen of him = seated at the upright. Perhaps the Decca recordings<BR>>of Jorge Bolet = on Bechstein<BR>>concert grands give you some idea, and then, perhaps = not.<BR>> <BR>>Please don't ask me to document everything...I'm = already staying<BR>>overtime ....I'm not goint<BR>>to research all = this again. It is in the books  on Liszt for you to<BR>>read.<BR>&g= t; <BR>>Liszt at the upright:<BR>><A href="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/= joel.puissant/perse/liszt.html">http://perso.wanadoo.fr/joel.puissant/perse= /liszt.html</A><BR>> <BR>><A href="http://www.freud.org.uk/Theory5.= html">http://www.freud.org.uk/Theory5.html</A><BR>> <BR>><A = href="http://www.mycomposers.co.uk/?page=composer&surname=Liszt">= http://www.mycomposers.co.uk/?page=composer&surname=Liszt</A><BR>&g= t; <BR>><A href="http://www.classical.net/lps/images/big/lon-liszt.jpg= ">http://www.classical.net/lps/images/big/lon-liszt.jpg</A><BR>> = <BR>>the early square piano (can you imagine???!!!)...<BR>><A = href="http://www.arts.arizona.edu/mus330b/images/liszt-02.jpg">http://www= .arts.arizona.edu/mus330b/images/liszt-02.jpg</A><BR>> <BR>>perhpas = you'll want to look at:<BR>> <BR>>1860 Steinway (like my friend's)...= <BR>> <BR>><A href="http://www.liszt.it/steinwaynew.htm">http://www= .liszt.it/steinwaynew.htm</A><BR>> <BR>><A href="http://www.periodp= iano.com/Stock/default.htm">http://www.periodpiano.com/Stock/default.htm</A= ><BR>> <BR>>Liszt's Erard<BR>><A href="http://www.metmuseum.org/= news/newspressrelease.asp?PressReleaseId=%7B98ED1CDA-5015-11D5-93F5-00902= 786BF44%7D">http://www.metmuseum.org/news/newspressrelease.asp?PressRelease= Id=%7B98ED1CDA-5015-11D5-93F5-00902786BF44%7D</A><BR>> <BR>>sorry = for thils windy post...<BR>> <BR>>Richard<BR>> <BR>> <BR>><B= R>------------------------------<BR><BR>___________________________________= ____________<BR>caut list info: <A href="http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listi= nfo/caut">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</A><BR><BR>End of caut = Digest, Vol 748, Issue 2<BR>************************************<BR></DIV><= /BODY></HTML>