<html> <body> Hi Tim,              Let me start by making a flat statement:   Any form of voicing if over done is destructive. If you are finding problems over a longer period, I think you are over doing the shoulders. With heavy use pianos, that are frequently tuned and voiced, just a slightly damp cloth, and a quick dab at the crown to take out the crown compression is all that is needed. Dry ironing is important to set the felt. I have not observed that there is a lot of change in shoulder elasticity, under these conditions. Part of the reason that I stress using the iron inverted, is that you can target where you put the steam. Misting the hammers will not open up the tone by inducing some elasticity into the shoulders, heck this is the zone we have to deep needle to get results. Misting just effects the surface area. The main advantage of using the iron on verticals, is that, you do not have to remove the action, and you can listen as you go. I have tried both methods,  and have found the use of the iron to be far more controlled, and closer to using needles. To be clear, my first choice is to use traditional methods of voicing.  There is no magic bullet.  But reality is another point.  There is no time or money to voice those practice pianos. Once the shoulders have been voiced to set the power and dynamics, leave them alone, they do not change that much.   Most of the changes take place up near the crown. Regards Roger At 07:13 AM 1/25/2003 -0600, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>David, I use the methods Roger wrote about in an article in the Journal.  Can't give you specific issue.  I also went to one of his seminars. I hadn't noticed any problems until I suggested the use of steam to someone via this list.  One of the responses to my suggestion warned of the problems steam causes.  It seems Yamaha has had to replace sets of hammers because of over steaming.  I then began to notice the problems appearing on pianos steamed a few years earlier.  I'd check the archives for threads about all this. I always am very careful with the amount of steam I use.  Very little, and iron after.  Since I used very little steam and I am seeing a change I don't like in the long run, I've moved away from it. Tim Coates Wapin Company LLP  David Ilvedson wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite> <pre>I would like to hear how you do the steaming...is it similar to what Roger Jolly does?  He apparently is having good luck with Yamaha verticals.  Don't know about the grands though.  You have to iron the hammers after you steam...I haven't actually tried yet...;- ]...needles David I. On 24 Jan 2003 at 19:02, Tim Coates wrote:   </pre><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite> <pre>I'd think twice about using steam. I have stopped using it unless it is a drastic situation. I have noticed that some of the pianos I steamed a few years ago sounded great for about a year. Now the bass notes are on the thuddy side. The resilience is gone from the hammers. I have started using a 2 ounce spray bottle with half water, half rubbing alcohol and 5 drops of unscented fabric softener. You spray on as much as you want and the results are instant.  Try a little at a time to get a feel. Contrary to what Wim has said I feel this a much safer voicing tool. It works great on concert instruments when you want to take the edge of fast. Tim Coates Wapin Company LLP <a href="mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</a> wrote:      List      At the Modesto Junior College we recieved 6 Boston verticals. The      52 inch upright and     the other style upright. I forget the model no.s. Any way I find     the tone to be the typical tinny Asian sound which has really     deteriorated over the first year. Practice room pianos you know.     SOunds like a job for snuggle or maygbe super snuggle(grin).     You'all discussed this before?. Have some had success making a     musical instrument out of this slick piece of marketing. They sure     seem stingy to me.      Dale     </pre></blockquote> <pre>   </pre></blockquote></blockquote></body> </html>