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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With one handle or without =
one</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Joe Goss<BR><A
href="mailto:imatunr@srvinet.com">imatunr@srvinet.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.mothergoosetools.com">www.mothergoosetools.com</A></DI=
V>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ilvey@sbcglobal.net =
href="mailto:ilvey@sbcglobal.net">David's
Email</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=oleg-i@noos.fr
href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">oleg-i@noos.fr</A> ; <A =
title=caut@ptg.org
href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, =
2003 9:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pinning and =
Tone</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With a handle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David I.</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=oleg-i@noos.fr href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">Isaac sur =
Noos</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=caut@ptg.org
href="mailto:caut@ptg.org">College and University Technicians</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, =
2003 12:56
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pinning and =
Tone</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff
size=2>Don Mannino, hello,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff size=2>I
noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take too much play =
in the
pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the bushing grows, =
the part
can't swell because of the material, and when getting dry after, =
some play
is installed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=443194907-23102003>I came to a few pianos where the =
birseye
itself have developped ovalisation with time (1978
models)</SPAN>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2>S<SPAN class=443194907-23102003>o, while I like a lot the =
grand jack,
I am far from convinced with the other parts, for instance noise and =
extra
friction on RX... grand whippen lever, kind of feeling the weight =
and
texture of the damper lever in RX
series.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>ABS does not give as tone, =
only thump.
And I regret this, because I appreciate your grands, after having =
installed
in them firm Yamaha front punchings (discard those cotton style =
punchings !)
and regulate them so the touch is more light, they tone very well =
generally
(I mean for the soundboard/strings/hammers
parts)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>By the way are the =
broaches you sell
to be used without a handle
?.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>Best
Regards.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON=
T
size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON=
T
size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Isaac OLEG<BR><BR>Entretien et réparation de
pianos.<BR><BR>PianoTech<BR>17 rue de Choisy<BR>94400 VITRY sur
SEINE<BR>FRANCE<BR>tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>fax : 033 01 47 18 06 =
90<BR>cell: 06 60 42 58 77 </FONT></P>
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style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT =
face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B>
caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part =
de</B> Don
Mannino<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> mercredi 22 octobre 2003
19:20<BR><B>À :</B> College and University
Technicians<BR><B>Objet :</B> RE: Pinning and
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>I see =
what you're
getting at. I don't know of any simple answer to =
troubleshooting the
friction other than removing parts and testing for friction. =
You can
do general troubleshooting by swinging the action to find the =
loosest and
tightest parts, and you can measure down and upweight to get =
general
friction levels, but removing parts and feeling the softness of =
the
bushing and checking the friction with a spring gauge are really =
the
definitive way to know what's up.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Here =
are some
pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give you any real =
helpful
procedures to follow:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Too =
much
friction causes a dull tone with poor projection and sometimes =
poor
sustain. It affects the action performance as well, of
course.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Too =
little
friction causes no problems in tone at all <U>in and of =
itself</U>.
It is only because we are using cloth bushings that low friction =
results
in poor tone because the hammer is not controlled in its motion =
well
enough. Please understand me here - if you have a very, very =
firm bushing that will pin with low friction and still have =
excellent
side control, the tone should be fine. It is the limitation =
of using
a soft bushing material that forces us to pin with sufficient =
friction to
get the control we need. It is not the friction itself which =
gives
good tone - it is the firmness of the bushing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- =
Teflon bushings
gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they didn't last long
enough. They were an excellent idea, but the bushing =
material was
not nearly as durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed with =
use and
got noisy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Poor =
quality
cloth forces us to use more friction in the center to get the =
controlled
motion of the hammer. I used to work on some grand pianos in =
the 80s
that came from the factory with very poor, spongy cloth in the =
hammer
centers. I would re-size the bushings with water and =
alcohol, then
repin from the factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 pins. This =
made
thinner, firmer bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - 4 grams =
friction,
and resulted in dramatically improved tone. These pianos =
were dull
and lifeless from the factory with 6 to 10 grams friction in the =
soft
hammer centers, and a firm fit with lower friction really made =
them
sing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>So, =
when
evaluating friction levels in a given piano, I judge by sound and =
by feel
of the parts, and decide how to work with them. Now I work =
mostly
with Kawai parts, and the bushings are very firm with mostly =
excellent
control of the hammer. In dry climates they sometimes get =
too thin
in tone because the hammer center bushings dry out and become too =
loose,
and repinning them to fit the climate brings the power back up in =
the
tone. I find that if I pin for good solid tone in the =
mid
treble, that same friction level is great for the whole
piano.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Don
Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr =
align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alan McCoy
[mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October =
22,
2003 9:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> College and University
Technicians<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pinning and =
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000>Thanks Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>In
part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between =
friction
and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal difference =
between a
note that has a friction problem vs one that has a firmness
problem?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>My
normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes checking =
action
center friction, duh, and I check side to side play gang-style =
checking
for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see if someone =
has
figured out a way to systematically check for both friction and =
firmness
in an efficient way (ie without painstakingly removing every
flange!!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000>Alan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>PS
Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-) Hope =
things are
great down there in Modesto.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#800000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT =
face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
caut-bounces@ptg.org
[mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Don
Mannino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11
AM<BR><B>To:</B> caut@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> FW: Pinning =
and
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr =
align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2></FONT></DIV><SPAN =
class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT =
color=#000080>The tone of
the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has a pretty
distinctive sound to it. I would describe it as a thin =
and weak
tone. Checking the friction level in a thin sounding =
note,
repinning it, and listening will tell you a =
lot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT =
color=#000080>Experience is
the best teacher here. I don't have a specification to =
tell you,
except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone by =
ear. I
suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though. X =
amount of
deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the
pin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT =
color=#000080>Don
Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
=
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO=
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