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<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080>Isaac,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>Your =
comments
are usually heard from people who have somewhat limited =
experience
with ABS material. This is common in Europe, where the ABS actions =
have
not been used as widely and for as long a time. You are =
entitled to
your opinions, of course, but the ABS action parts have been widely
used for many, many years now, and they have proven themselves very =
well. Actually, it seems strange that you brought up ABS =
parts -
this topic was about pinning friction, and you have steered it in a new
direction. I'm always happy for the opportunity to respond =
regarding Kawai
products, though!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>ABS =
Birds-eyes will most
definitely not become oval any easier than in wood parts. The =
parts have
been very thoroughly tested to be at least as strong as wood, even after =
30
years. In my 24 years working on pianos, both at Kawai and =
before, I
have never seen any oval birds-eyes in ABS parts except for one upright =
piano
where someone in a school reached in and broke hammers off. What =
you have
seen must have been an aberration, or was in a piano which was subject =
to some
kind of abuse. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080> I have experienced oval birds-eyes in wood parts =
before,
besides split wood birds eyes and deformed wood flanges pinching =
the hammer
butts after years of humidity fluctuations. <SPAN
class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>The ABS material is =
quite
resilient, and has to be treated very brutally to become
deformed.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
class=234563016-23102003></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>Your =
comments regarding
tone do not fit with the sound of the Shigeru Kawai pianos at =
all.
Our Shigeru Kawai concert grands have truly wonderful tone, and are =
becoming
sought after by classical artists - and none have complained about it =
having the
full ABS action! Many are very surprised when we tell them the =
action is
made of 'plastic.' If you have experienced a "thump" tone, =
then you
might consider other factors besides just the ABS. If you =
investigate
the piano further I am confident you would find another
explanation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT =
color=#000080>The grand hammer
shank (which contains the cloth bushing) is made from wood in =
all Kawai
actions, so your comments regarding the bushing change does not apply to =
grand
hammer shanks, the topic of my post. In other words, the ABS =
flanges have
no affect at all on the play in the pinning, contrary to your =
statement.
My comments regarding loose pinning in dry climates applied to many =
well
made actions - I have experienced it in Yamaha and Renner actions as =
well as
Kawai, and others on the list have said this in the past. The =
parts can be
slightly low in friction in dry conditions because these companies are =
ensuring
free movement and acceptable friction in even the most humid
climates.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>In upright =
pianos the
hammer butt flange is ABS, but there has been no verification of a =
difference in
the flange friction as the bushing and flange assembly react to =
humidity.
I used to think that the wood was better than plastic in this regard
myself, but have been unable to verify that wood flanges and ABS =
flanges
give a measurably different range of friction in varying humidity
conditions. In my testing (using upright hammer butt =
flanges,
wood and plastic, both rebushed with the same cloth and procedures and =
measured
over a period of a year in all different environmental conditions) the =
results
were inconclusive.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>Isaac, I =
respect your
right to an opinion based on your experiences, but I do not
think that your findings are common. Try to keep an =
open
mind as to whether your circumstances might have been unusual, and also =
to
Kawai's efforts to keep development of the modern piano moving =
forward.
The piano industry needs innovation with new designs and materials, and =
this
type of objection to Kawai's ABS actions is typically =
a reflection
of piano peoples' resistance to change.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003></SPAN><SPAN
class=234563016-23102003></SPAN><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT =
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT color=#000080>Don Mannino
RPT</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234563016-23102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Isaac
sur Noos [mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, =
2003
12:56 AM<BR><B>To:</B> College and University =
Technicians<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
Pinning and Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff size=2>Don
Mannino, hello,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff size=2>I
noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take too much play in =
the
pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the bushing grows, =
the part
can't swell because of the material, and when getting dry after, some =
play is
installed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=443194907-23102003><FONT face=Arial =
color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=443194907-23102003>I came to a few pianos where the =
birseye itself
have developped ovalisation with time (1978
models)</SPAN>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2>S<SPAN class=443194907-23102003>o, while I like a lot the =
grand jack, I
am far from convinced with the other parts, for instance noise and =
extra
friction on RX... grand whippen lever, kind of feeling the weight and =
texture
of the damper lever in RX
series.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>ABS does not give as tone, =
only thump.
And I regret this, because I appreciate your grands, after having =
installed in
them firm Yamaha front punchings (discard those cotton style punchings =
!) and
regulate them so the touch is more light, they tone very well =
generally (I
mean for the soundboard/strings/hammers
parts)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>By the way are the broaches =
you sell to
be used without a handle =
?.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=443194907-23102003>Best
Regards.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON=
T
size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FON=
T
size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT =
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
=
class=443194907-23102003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Isaac OLEG<BR><BR>Entretien et réparation de
pianos.<BR><BR>PianoTech<BR>17 rue de Choisy<BR>94400 VITRY sur
SEINE<BR>FRANCE<BR>tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>fax : 033 01 47 18 06
90<BR>cell: 06 60 42 58 77 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT =
face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> =
caut-bounces@ptg.org
[mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part de</B> Don
Mannino<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> mercredi 22 octobre 2003
19:20<BR><B>À :</B> College and University
Technicians<BR><B>Objet :</B> RE: Pinning and =
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>I see =
what you're
getting at. I don't know of any simple answer to =
troubleshooting the
friction other than removing parts and testing for friction. =
You can
do general troubleshooting by swinging the action to find the =
loosest and
tightest parts, and you can measure down and upweight to get general =
friction levels, but removing parts and feeling the softness of the =
bushing
and checking the friction with a spring gauge are really the =
definitive way
to know what's up.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Here are =
some
pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give you any real =
helpful
procedures to follow:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Too =
much friction
causes a dull tone with poor projection and sometimes poor =
sustain. It
affects the action performance as well, of =
course.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Too =
little
friction causes no problems in tone at all <U>in and of =
itself</U>. It
is only because we are using cloth bushings that low friction =
results in
poor tone because the hammer is not controlled in its motion well
enough. Please understand me here - if you have a very, very
firm bushing that will pin with low friction and still have =
excellent
side control, the tone should be fine. It is the limitation of =
using a
soft bushing material that forces us to pin with sufficient friction =
to get
the control we need. It is not the friction itself which gives =
good
tone - it is the firmness of the bushing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Teflon =
bushings
gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they didn't last long =
enough.
They were an excellent idea, but the bushing material was not nearly =
as
durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed with use and got
noisy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>- Poor =
quality cloth
forces us to use more friction in the center to get the controlled =
motion of
the hammer. I used to work on some grand pianos in the 80s =
that came
from the factory with very poor, spongy cloth in the hammer =
centers. I
would re-size the bushings with water and alcohol, then repin from =
the
factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 pins. This made thinner, firmer =
bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - 4 grams friction, and =
resulted in
dramatically improved tone. These pianos were dull and =
lifeless from
the factory with 6 to 10 grams friction in the soft hammer centers, =
and a
firm fit with lower friction really made them =
sing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>So, when =
evaluating
friction levels in a given piano, I judge by sound and by feel of =
the parts,
and decide how to work with them. Now I work mostly with Kawai =
parts,
and the bushings are very firm with mostly excellent control of the
hammer. In dry climates they sometimes get too thin in tone =
because
the hammer center bushings dry out and become too loose, and =
repinning them
to fit the climate brings the power back up in the tone. I =
find that
if I pin for good solid tone in the mid treble, that same =
friction
level is great for the whole piano.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT color=#000080>Don
Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=578500117-22102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr =
align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Alan McCoy
[mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October =
22, 2003
9:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> College and University
Technicians<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pinning and =
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000>Thanks Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>In
part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between =
friction
and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal difference =
between a
note that has a friction problem vs one that has a firmness
problem?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>My
normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes checking =
action
center friction, duh, and I check side to side play gang-style =
checking
for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see if someone has =
figured
out a way to systematically check for both friction and firmness =
in an
efficient way (ie without painstakingly removing every
flange!!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000>Alan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond
color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=861432016-22102003><FONT face=Garamond =
color=#800000>PS
Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-) Hope =
things are
great down there in Modesto.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT =
face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
caut-bounces@ptg.org
[mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Don
Mannino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11
AM<BR><B>To:</B> caut@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> FW: Pinning and =
Tone<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr =
align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2></FONT></DIV><SPAN =
class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080>Alan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080>The =
tone of the
piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has a pretty =
distinctive
sound to it. I would describe it as a thin and weak =
tone.
Checking the friction level in a thin sounding note, repinning =
it, and
listening will tell you a lot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT =
color=#000080>Experience is
the best teacher here. I don't have a specification to =
tell you,
except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone by =
ear. I
suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though. X =
amount of
deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the
pin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT color=#000080>Don
Mannino</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=265252321-21102003><FONT
=
color=#000080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO=
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