<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C3852F.9D341860"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>  <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue style='tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=Section1> David,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You may be right about the capstans = and knuckles, but once again it means changing a new instrument x 8. = <st1:PersonName>Eric Schandall</st1:PersonName> is coming out next week and I’ll push him hard on = this. Let’s see what he says. I was told by “a competitor” that concert = artists will never like them as is, but if this is what Steinway C & A is = doing I can’t really buy that either. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> As far as side play goes they = really do seem tight. (no excess sideplay) But the things swing all day long! If = this indeed works, then all the PTG literature, articles, etc. about friction = are in question. Or maybe there really are two types of pianos; S & S, and everyone else.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Jim = Busby<o:p></o:p> -----Original = Message----- From: = caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On = Behalf Of David Love Sent: Saturday, September = 27, 2003 2:04 PM To: College and = University Technicians Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma <o:p> </o:p> <div> Jim:<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> At 70 grams = (though you didn't mention where that was), <o:p></o:p>        &nbsp= ;    <o:p></o:p>        &nbsp= ;    Random samples generally in the middle.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>  achieving an acceptable = touchweight by reducing hammer weight and adding key weight will not likely do it = without other negative consequences.  Assuming you are at 70 grams in the = middle, that would mean adding one full lead to the middle of the key (net about = 6-7 grams) and taking 2 grams off the hammer weight to get you between 50 = and 55.  While I don't have enough data to say for sure, it looks like a poorly = located capstan, too short a knuckle dimension or both.   I like = friction to measure out around 14 or 15 grams in the bass down to about 9 or = 10 grams in the treble, depending on hammer weight.  That implies some = friction in the flange.  I don't see how 27 swings can not involve some = sideplay.  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <div> David = Love<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <a href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">davidlovepianos@earthlink.n= et</a><o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> ----- Original Message = ----- <o:p></o:p> </div> <div style='font-color:black'> From:</span= > <a href="mailto:jim_busby@byu.edu" title="jim_busby@byu.edu">Jim = Busby</a> <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> To: = <a href="mailto:caut@ptg.org" title="caut@ptg.org">College and = University Technicians</a><o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Sent:</span= > 9/27/2003 12:50:35 PM <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Subject:</s= pan> RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma<o:p></o:p> </div> <div> <o:p> </o:p> </div> Thanks = Ric.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>= Steinway’s = standard used to be “less than 4 grams” but seems to have changed. = Now it’s not one of grams or swings but “as close to zero = friction as possible with no side play.” This seems to be a recent change and = I was told that Steinway has some kind of new system to achieve this. = <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>= I did repin a = few and it regulates well, but DW is now about 70. Changing hammer weight (strike = weight) and adjusting front weight, etc. will bring it to what I want, but then I’ve changed their design and essentially voided warranty. = <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>= You’re = right about sound. It does make a difference, and their way seems to sound great. It = just seems weird, and against what I’ve heard for = years.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>= I’ll try = it. I’m fairly opened minded.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>= Thanks = again,<o:p></o:p> <st1:PersonName>Jim Busby</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></span= > <o:p> </o:p>= -----Original = Message----- From: = caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On = Behalf Of Richard Brekne Sent: Saturday, September = 27, 2003 1:28 PM To: College and = University Technicians Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>   <o:p></o:p> Jim Busby wrote: = <o:p></o:p> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' TYPE=CITE> List, <o:p></o:p> I am NOT bashing here...I love Steinways, but = I have a dilemma. (BTW, I just finished prepping and tuning 12 "out of the box" 1098's = and they are indeed wonderful instruments! None of the former problems.) (Hurray!) <o:p></o:p> Here is a new question concerning pinning on = the 8 new grands I have. (2 D's, 3 B's, 2 M's, and an S.) Hammer flange pinning is around 1-2 grams! = (From 20 to 37 swings) I was ready to repin, since they simply don't = check without roughing the tails (which I believe shouldn't be the solution) Steinway says that they have a new flange design to try to = "totally", as far as possible, reduce friction there. They = advertise it as "permafree" (scary) because of the Teflon impregnated into = the bushing cloth. They say that as long as there is no side play 37 swings = is OK. But is it???  <o:p></o:p> </blockquote> Hmm... assuming the hammers follow a solid = path towards the string, even in hard play... it should be ok.... aside from = the general discussion about whether or not a certain amount of friction is = a good thing. That said...  seems like an awwwwwfull lot of swings... 25 = +.... hard to imagine thats not because of overly loose pins. I get quite an improvement with useing teflon powder in bushings... and have = experienced solid pinning at 12 swings or so on occasion... but thats not any where near = what you are describing.   <o:p></o:p> You can make the action work by making sure rep. spring is not too strong and by periodically roughing the tails, but conventional wisdom = says we need proper friction in the right places to make an action feel = and work correctly. Right?? Any thoughts on = this?<o:p></o:p> I like a certain amount of friction... 10 = grams or so seems very comfortable... but then I'm rather conservative with actions. Friction can serve as a brake... keeps the fly away hammer syndrom from = getting to carried away. Tho admitedly... my call on this is pretty subjective = in nature.   <o:p></o:p> Since they are under warranty I will do as I was taught at Steinway, but = my gut feeling is to repin the rail, lighten the hammers, etc. to achieve proper touchweight, and spend the next ten years working on pianos that feel "right" to me.<o:p></o:p> Would be interested in hearing a follow up on = these <<permafree>> bushings... what you think of them as you go = through changing and servicing them over the next few months. = <o:p></o:p> I've consulted with 2 other techs who are top notch by any standard and = they totally agree with me. However, two Steinway techs say their system = works. How do I justify the two seemingly opposing systems and make the = pianos work to my standards without bucking Steinway? Have any of you = faced this yet?  <o:p></o:p> Steinways official line is that these should = exhibit 10 - 35 swings ??... let them go for a while if that be... and see how = well they perform... change one or two if you think its the right thing to do = and compare. Loose pins cause sloppy sound... weak and falsy... you know it = when you hear it.   <o:p></o:p> Thanks, Jim Busby RPT BYU <a = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives"></a> <o:p></o:p></= span> -- Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. UiB, Bergen, Norway <a href="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</a> = <a = href="http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html">http://home.broad= park.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html</a> <a = href="http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html">http://www.hf.uib= .no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html</a>  <o:p></o:p> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html>