Conservative Octaves? (long)

[Robert S. Bussell]

At 03:46 PM 10/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>For example, at the Dearborn (Michigan USA) Piano Technicians Guild
>Convention in July '96 I was among 3 tuners given the task of preparing a
>piano for the PTG tuning exam.  We had to do a "master tuning" on the
>piano
>
>After laying this tuning on the piano (using RCT of course ;-) I asked the
>other two tuners to check my work and verify that the piano was at a good
>starting place to refine aurally into a master tuning.  Both these tuners
>are fine aural tuners having both passed the tuning exam _aurally_ at 90%
>or better in all categories.
>
>The first one checked my tuning and said that my octaves were even, but
>stretched too much for him.  The second said the opposite, that my octaves
>were way too conservative, that I should stretch them much more!
>
>We ended up comprimsing on (approximately) my tuning style.
>


Hi Dean,

    Perhaps you were writing about that late night master tuning that you
and I participated in?  If it was, then I know that I was the bear (Papa or
Mama Bear?) that preferred a wider stretch.

    For your perusal, (and the list's), I offer my input into this discussion.



    My motivation is to hear a wider fifth.  I would like squeaky clean
octaves too, but, I try to balance the octaves with my desire for a near
squeaky fifth and a reasonable sounding fourth. Along with many tuners, I
start out setting A4 to A3, then to A2.  I also set D4 from A4 using the
major 6th/10th test. My (ideal) objective is to have the fifth as close to
pure as possible and still have the 10th slightly  (barely noticeably)
slower than the 6th.  Then I work with the D4/A3 forth, adjusting A3 as
needed and then checking the octave to hear if it is still tolerable.
Ideally the fifth and the octave will have a similar amount of noise.  As I
recall, during the Dearborn Master tuning that I participated in, my fifths
differed from yours only about 2 tenths of a cent, but surprisingly enough,
those two tenths made a big difference musically to me.

    It is also the fourths and fifths that motivate me to stretch my
octaves, going out of the temperament. Ron Berry and I have often  discussed
that the fifth octave of the FAC tuning on the SAT seems to be too flat. My
reasoning is that the fifths seem to beat too fast on the FAC tuning in that
octave.  Tuning the fifths nearly pure in this octave is my preference but I
try not to let my fourths go too wild. This obviously allows me to have my
10ths faster than my 3rds, and my 17ths faster than my 10ths. Where possible
the contiguous fourths and fifths help keep me from stretching my octaves
too much.  By tuning this way, I often have a somewhat fast beating double
octave up through the 7th octave.


    I have heard of other Examiners preferring and teaching that examinees
will do well if they keep their 3rds, 10ths, and 17ths about the same.  From
my observations, this does seem to fit master tunings done at many of the
last national conventions, but it leaves me feeling a little flat. :>)   The
PTG tuning exam allows for some difference in stretch. The final judgement
is during aural verification when the examiners check individual notes that
the program found inconsistant with the master tuning.  Since only one note
can be checked at a time, it must be asked if that one note fits within all
the other notes. It is my experience that examiners often use continuous
10ths and 17ths to check this "fit" as well as contiguous intervals.
Therfore, the amount of stretch is not taken directly into account unless it
is ratically different from the norm, until the top octave. Examiners with
differing preferences concerning stretch of the octaves can be a plus to a
fair examination.

    Perhaps we can jump over to the PTG-L and discuss this in further
detail.   I have been looking forward to this discussion for several years.



Bob,

P.S. Dean, I am VERY impressed with your Cybertuner.  As an IBM user I have
never been interested in MAC.  That is, until now! I would like to hear more
about the advance customized tuning aspect of your program.
Robert S. Bussell   Registered Piano Technician P.T.G.
Indianapolis In.
rbussell@iquest.net