What temperament is a guitar tuned? (still more)

[moment@pacbell.net]

Billbrpt@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/2/98 5:56:52 PM Central Daylight Time,
> tkeenan@kermode.net writes:
>
> <<the two (simplest) ways I have just mentioned on your hypothetical
> instruments would not work.
>   Tim Keenan >>
>
> I thank you for your time but I can only reiterate  what I said in the
> previous post.  Before you declare something impossible, you should at least
> try it first.
>
> I did not comment on the other styles of tuning you mentioned because they did
> not involve the issue of ET vs. WT.  I have observed that many people tune
> their guitars by making solid unisons with a fret and open string as you
> describe. It seems logical to them but it, in fact, creates a Pythagorean
> style tuning in which all the 3rds and 6ths are very wide. Some Country &
> Western performers,  especially the Cajuns in Louisiana like that kind of
> sound.
>
> If you do not have an SAT and would like to approximate the 1/6 comma ditonic
> WT by ear, here is how you would do it:
>
> Tune A2 to the fork.
> Tune E4 to A2 first a pure 12th, then flatten E4 until it beats at 1 strong
> beat per  second.
> Tune E2, a double octave to E4, as wide as possible without creating a
> noticeable beat.
> Check the 4th, E2-A2 for about 2 beats per second.
> Tune D3 to A2 first a pure 4th, then sharpen D3 until it beats 2 beats per
> second.
> Tune B3 to E4 first a pure 4th, then flatten B3 until it beats 2 beats per
> second.
> Listen to the 6th, D3-B3. It should beat gently, 3-4 beats per second.
> Tune G3 to D3 first a pure 4th, then sharpen G3 until it beats 2 beats per
> second.
> Check the 3rd, G3-B3.  It should beat gently, 3-4 beats per second, exactly
> the same as
>      the 6th, D3-B3.  If these checks don't agree, tweek your intervals,
> evening them out
>      until they do.
>
> Now, as a musical test, play your favorite music normally.  Avoid trying to
> "prove" that this will "not work" (the way piano tuners like to "prove" that a
> WT or other HT "won't work" by "banging" on the intervals they think sound
> "sour").  In other words, play normal musical contexts,whatever they might
> be,donot try to find obscure intervals and play them out of context.  Even in
> ET,you cannot have a pure unison on a fretted six-string guitar unless you
> tune in Pythagorean intonation.  Absolute purety of a  unison or octave does
> not have the same importance or value on the guitar as it does on the piano.
> It doesn't between other intruments or voices either.
>
> I think you will find that a real musical context will indeed work.  If you
> think this idea is perhaps good but simply goes too far, you can try the
> "Victorian" version.  As you can see by the digital information, all of the
> tempereing is cut in half from the 1/6 ditonic comma WT. Your 12th and 4ths
> will beat just a little more than in ET.  Your 3rd and 6th will beat more
> gently than in ET, a slightly "sweeter" sound.
>
> I hope you discover something that really pleases your ear.
>
> Bill Bremmer RPT
> Madison,Wisconsin

  I took the time to try this on two guitars.  As I have never tuned
electronically I am only able to try this beat approach.  I am surprised at the
results.  Very surprised.  From all the talk about "If" and harsh thirds and
seeing that the proceedure is different from my own I expected the guitars to
sound 'wild'.

The Alvarez 6 string is my wife's and is strung with extra light guage (.011")
strings.  The Taylor 510 6 string is mine and is strung with mediums (.013").  The
Alvarez action was set up by a friend of mine who works at the Valley Arts Guitar
division of Samick.  I set up the Taylor.  I make my own saddles by sandwiching
ivory keytails together with CA and intonate for the medium guage strings I always
use.  I was satisfied with the intonation on both these guitars.

I was able to follow most of the proceedure.  I hit a snag with 'tune E2 to E4 as
wide as possible w/o noticeable beats'.  (It has to beat to be wide, so I kept it
minimal).  By the time I got to the tests for the 6th (D3 to B3) [shouldn't that
be D2 to B3??] and the 3rd (G3-B3) I differed from the 3-4 beats per second on the
Alvarez although both intervals did beat the same, about 2 beats per second.  On
the Taylor it worked but I think I was slightly different on my 'wide' E2 to E4.

They both played OK.  Slightly, not at all harshly, more vibrato when playing E
shaped barre chords, but smoother playing A shaped barre chords, which tend to get
rough up the neck in my standard style of tuning.

I have been satisfied with my own style of tuning which I developed while I was
learning how to tune a piano 24 years ago.  If a guitar is not set up for the
guage of strings hanging off it or the pitch at which you play (mine is intonated
for 1/2 step flat, the Alvarez for concert) you can't fairly test a tuning system
because the intonation problems always get in the way.  The twelve string is
another problem.  If the frets aren't ground down just about flush with the
fingerboard ANY rolling of your fingers will distort unisons.  I don't have the
patience to try to learn that kind of finger control.

You people all seem hip to 'Well Temperament' and 'Reverse Well' and 'HT', etc.  I
don't know anything about these.  I was only taught ET and the way I tune guitar
is an attempt to duplicate this.

Dwight Keyes
Keyes Piano Tuning