In a message dated 6/4/98 2:27:51 AM Central Daylight Time, moment@pacbell.net writes: << I took the time to try this on two guitars. As I have never tuned electronically I am only able to try this beat approach. I am surprised at the results. Very surprised. From all the talk about "If" and harsh thirds and seeing that the proceedure is different from my own I expected the guitars to sound 'wild'.>> Thank you for the patience and interest in trying this. I was just about to succumb to the flames. <> I only mean by this that it should not be at all narrow. The 2 beats in the E2-E4 4th are what is important. The A2-E4 12th should not beat faster than 1 beat per second and can be slower. It is OK to put a slight beat (1/2 bps) in the double octave so that the 12th does not beat too quickly. << By the time I got to the tests for the 6th (D3 to B3) [shouldn't that be D2 to B3??] >> No, the D on the guitar corresponds to the D3 on a piano keyboard. <<and the 3rd (G3-B3) I differed from the 3-4 beats per second on the Alvarez although both intervals did beat the same, about 2 beats per second.>> This is actually what they should be, theoretically. The same speed as the 4ths. It just has not always workout for me that way, they usually seem a little faster. <<On the Taylor it worked but I think I was slightly different on my 'wide' E2 to E4.>> Tim is right in saying that the guitar has less inharmonicity than the piano but it still does have some and just as with the piano, it varies from one instrument to another. I only own one guitar, it was given to me by my father. It is not a high quality one and I can play it but only in very simple ways. I have, however, volunteered to tune countless numbers of guitars for their owners, testing my tuning theories and seeing what the results were. The reactions I get are usually like yours: surprise and amazement at what kinds of different sounds are possible. The only negative reactions I have really ever received were from this List. This has been the same as with my temperament experience and discussions involving pianos. <<They both played OK. Slightly, not at all harshly, more vibrato when playing E shaped barre chords, but smoother playing A shaped barre chords, which tend to get rough up the neck in my standard style of tuning.>> I admit that I don't know any technical talk about guitar playing. I play by ear and learned to play the different chords by my Dad showing me how they are fingered. I am however, an accomplished bass player and played professionally for many years in everything from symphony orchestras to garage bands. I play both fretted and fretless. When I tuned my bass, which was always a 4 string type, I simply left a beat between those intervals. I played bass professionally long before I became interested in HT's. The bass does not usually play harmony or chords, only single notes, sometimes double stops. I still tune it the way I always did. << I have been satisfied with my own style of tuning which I developed while I was learning how to tune a piano 24 years ago. If a guitar is not set up for the guage of strings hanging off it or the pitch at which you play (mine is intonated for 1/2 step flat, the Alvarez for concert) you can't fairly test a tuning system because the intonation problems always get in the way. The twelve string is another problem. If the frets aren't ground down just about flush with the fingerboard ANY rolling of your fingers will distort unisons. I don't have the patience to try to learn that kind of finger control. You people all seem hip to 'Well Temperament' and 'Reverse Well' and 'HT', etc. I don't know anything about these. I was only taught ET and the way I tune guitar is an attempt to duplicate this. Dwight Keyes Keyes Piano Tuning >> You can also approach the six strings of the guitar from "the inside out". If an absolute A-440 is not required, start with the instrument at pitch and begin fine tuning the rapidly beating intervals, the D3-B3 6th and the G3-B3 3rd. In the Standard (ET) tuning, these beat about 8 bps (as Tim said). Simply flatten the B3 and sharpen the D3 until their beating has a pleasing sound to you, say 5-6 bps. Now build your 4ths, 12th and double octave around them evenly. This will approximate the "Victorian" version I gave in previous posts. You can also create a "Pythagorean" harmony by tuning all of the 4ths, the 12th and the double octave so that they are perfectly beatless. This will make your 3rd and 6th beat very rapidly and the harmony will have a sharp, harsh edge to it. This may however be appropriate to some Country styles and being an expert, aficionado and performer of Cajun Music, I can tell you that this kind of tuning goes very well with that music. You can also go a middle ground on the Pythagorean approach. You make your 4ths, & 12th very nearly pure but not quite. The electronic figures for the Pythagorean approach are simply the inverse of the WT approaches. Instead of further tempering the 4ths & 12th, you make them pure. If anyone is interested in those figures, I can publish them next week. They may be very well suited to the banjo since this instrument has a very short sustain. I'd like for a real banjo player to try tuning in the Pythagorean style and tell us what he thinks. I will be in Mamou, Louisiana this week end for a real Cajun Music Festival in the place where true Cajun Music originates and the old dialect of Cajun French is still spoken. Since I have studied French for a good 30 years and have been interested in the Cajun culture for a good 25, I have learned to speak the old dialect, can tell jokes and stories in it and best of all, sing in it. The intonation required for a true Cajun sound is best described as Pythagorean. To the casual ear, it may sound sharp and somewhat out of tune but to a real Cajun, it is a very sweet sound and anything else sounds foreign. Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin
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