I would be interested in Antares comments. I looked in the archives but finding is was very difficult and I gave up. If someone has a copy of it could you please send them to me at mikep@crt.com. Thanks. As to why piano buyers by pianos they buy, I can give you some insight. I'm not a piano technician or an accomplished piano player. Two of my children play and they are ages 10 & 8. We've been using my mothers 1926 upright player piano that had the player taken out and it is now time to get our own that will perform better. I started the self taught routine when my second child started taking lessons. I played the trumpet and did that fairly well so I'm comfortable with reading music and counting it, etc. I am a technically oriented person and use the web and it's resource fairly well so I first did some searching through the news groups and stumbled across the rec.music.makers.piano group and started lurking. I went to Deja.com and did searches on particular manufacturers. I started my search with Yamaha at the top of my list because I didn't know any better and the salesman was very convincing. He explained all the new technological advances that Yamaha was using with the vacuum casting (not sure that's the name) and the extensive tuning, etc. This was very impressive for someone who didn't know much. I thought that the C1 would be in a price range I would be willing to spend so I started researching it via Deja and came under the opinion that it was too small. So I started researching the C2 which brought me into contact with the Kawai and Petrof and then eventually the Estonia. I'm now considering the Petrof IV and III and hopefully the I be able to the the III. All this talk about the problems with the Petrof does give me some concern and I'm trying to figure out if this is true of the new Petrof's being produced today. Like I said I'm not a technician and I'm not going to drag a tech with me everywhere I go to look at pianos. When I do finally narrow down the pianos I'm most interested in I will find a reputable technician and have him/her go over the piano thoroughly. But, how do I know this technician is reputable and really knows what he is talking about? References, right? Well, if I can't tell if a tech is good how can I be sure that another person knows that the tech is good. I would like to see a list developed of things that can be checked and how to do it. For instance, the next time I stop by the Petrof dealer I'm going to take a hard look at the pinblock and how it matches up with soundboard. Someone posted a link to pictures of how the piano strings basicly went straight through the pin block and how a piece of paper could be slipped between the wire and the pin. That was extremely helpful for me. I will look for this problem on any piano I consider. Basicly, the reason I have done so much research is because I have the resources (Web, news groups, this mailing list) to find information. Also, I'm attempting to purchase a piano that will last several generations and is built from quality materials and this is going to be a tremendous outlay of $$ for me. If I was only concerned with providing a piano for my children to learn the piano and had the attitude that they could quit whenever they pleased I would go the the local piano store and buy a $2000 upright piano and be done with it. Just like some people buy computers, I have several friends that bought Packard Bell computers and regret it. Aren't all computers built the same or do the same thing??? I want to provide an atmosphere in which my children can excel at the piano I don't believe this is the case for many parents they are just looking for a piano that looks and sounds like a piano. I've sort of rambled but I hope I've given a different perspective. Here are things that will hamper me from getting the best piano. FUD from this list and the salesperson Lack of up-to-date info. (ie. Are the new Petrof's exhibiting the same problems) My ability to play well enough to evaluate a piano's playabiltiy, tone, etc from first hand perspective Price It's my opinion at this moment is that the Petrof pianos give me a lot for the price and that there is nothing measurably noticable gained by purchasing a C2/C3 for the price difference. I believe that if I find a reputable piano store that preps the Petrof properly I have lost nothing. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Delwin D Fandrich [SMTP:pianobuilders@olynet.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 10:42 AM > To: pianotech@ptg.org > Subject: Re: once more an opinion about Petrof -- And, another > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Antares <antares@EURONET.NL> > To: <pianotech@ptg.org> > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 3:37 AM > Subject: once more an opinion about Petrof > > > > >So. Let's see if I have this right. Petrof builds a piano that > Richard > > >(along with a few others) point out could be built somewhat better than > is > > >being done. At the same time more than a few folks say sounds pretty > good. > > >And, in spite of its various assembly and structural flaws, it sells > quite > > >well and the owners seem to like them. What a unique concept. Could > it > be > > >the music.... > > > > > >Del > > > > > > No Del, it could not be the music, and you know better. > > Last year I recall reacting to a similar discussion about Petrof. I > wrote > a > > long account of my own experience with Petrofs here in Holland. However, > my > > writing was totally in(vain) so it seemed, nobody reacted. > > Now we have the same issue and all I wish to say here is that although > > Petrofs can have a nice sound (especially the bass and the middle > section), > > and although they really did improve the quality, it still is an > instrument > > we can not compare with, for instance, Schimmel, Yamaha, Seiler and more > > like those. The price too will reveal at least something about the > quality. > > Lastly, I have tuned Petrofs during almost 30 years (is that enough > then > to > > have an opinion?), and allow me to tell you..when I started as an > > apprentice, they were bad...., and it had to do with the East Bloc > (s)low > > tech mentality (last year I made a comparison with older Lada's, > Trabants, > > and Skoda's, if you know what I am talking about). > > So in a way, some people are right when they put the finger on some sore > > spots. > > Nevertheless, and this is my personal thought (for as far as anybody > could > > be interested), Petrofs are not bad value at all, they have improved > > considerably and they can be surprisingly nice for that money. > > > > Exit me, > > > > Antares > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Antares, > > No. Your writing was not in vein. I read it an filed it away. I have no > personal experience at all with recent Petrof pianos. None. I've looked > at > several of them in stores and at trade shows, but have never tuned one or > worked on one. So, I read, and consider, all of the opinions those with > hands-on experience are willing to share. > > It is just that this whole subject has been of interest to me for some > time. > Why do people buy the pianos that they buy? If the buyer is a serious > musician, he or she probably has a fairly good idea of what they want. > They > probably have access to more-or-less reliable information -- via the Piano > Book, their piano technician, their own experience, etc. -- to guide them > in > their selection. The inexperienced buyer, on the other hand, is less well > equipped to make the purchase. > > They find themselves much more at the mercy of the piano dealer and the > piano salesman. They know nothing of the insides of the piano. They > couldn't tell a badly pinned bridge if it broke and dumped them into the > raging stream below. A pinblock could be a chopping block, for all they > know. They may not yet have -- or even know of -- a reliable piano > technician. What they do have is a desire to bring home-made music into > their homes and their own senses. Oh, yes, and usually, a tight budget. > > So. They venture into the piano store. (In His great mercy, may God > protect me from the typical Piano Store!) And there they see row after > row > of Pianos. First off, Mrs Buyer says I don't like the looks of that one, > but I really like that one over there. That narrows the field somewhat. > So, looks sell, but it is not the only thing. A brief glance at the price > tags narrows the field a bit further. This still leaves several brands > and > several models to choose from. After waging the "features war" between > the > various manufacturers for a while they become so confused they just about > decide to out and buy that new large-screen TV after all. But someone in > the family does play a bit. And that someone doesn't like the sound of > those pianos over there. They sound rather tinny and hard -- if you can > imagine such a thing in a modern, low- to mid- priced "piano" -- in spite > of > their German pinblocks, Sitka spruce soundboards, nickel-plated, > cut-thread > tuning pins, etc. > > By this time Mr Salesman has sized them up and knows that they know > nothing > of the piano and spots some easy money. Guides them to the Petrof, waxes > eloquent about the Olde-World Craftsmanship, plays a few tunes, and -- > guess > what -- it sounds pretty good. The tone is warm, nice. Almost musical! > Especially compared to the harsh and tinny sound of some of its > competitors. > Even better than some of those more expensive pianos over there, come to > that. And, the sale is made. Quite possibly at a higher profit margin > that > the dealer would have gotten selling one of his really low-end pianos. > > The buyer knows nothing of what is inside. That remains for the > technician > to explain to them. Or not, if they are wise. The time for that little > heart-to-heart chat is before the sale, if at all possible, not after. > > My point is that piano buyers in this market don't look at, or even know > to > look for, the same things that a technician looks at. They consider > price, > looks and sound. In that order. In this market they probably do not have > enough experience to do anything else. They can not tell a badly > regulated > action from one with a razor-sharp regulation. They knew nothing of the > soundboard until the Mr Salesman showed them one. > > Personally, I am surprised that more manufacturers don't take advantage of > this in this price range. The only ones that do seem to have gotten the > picture have moved up-scale and build what are now fairly expensive > pianos. > (Don't ask!) > > Regards, > > Del > >
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