Bill, Thanks very much for your explanation. Doug Hershberger ----- Original Message ----- From: <Billbrpt@AOL.COM> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Re: was accu-tuner now tuning question > In a message dated 7/15/99 12:28:14 PM EST, you write: > > << When I set the octave to the machine and then do > the tests the octave sounds kind of flat or at the very most pure. I'm > wondering if others have observed this or I have just been pushing the > envelope of stretch so long that I'm used to this more aggressive style. It > is most noticeable on low inharmonicity pianos. It seems like with a > Steinway there is more room to customize the octaves and the accu-tuner > seems to agree with that. >> > > Your observations are correct and you are doing what most, but not all, > tuners > do these days. The Steinway piano has more inharmonicity than most other > pianos so it lends itself more easily to a wider temperament range octave > with 5ths that are less tempered. If you try to tune a low inharmonicity > piano such as a Mason & Hamlin, Kawai or Baldwin 7 & 9 foot grand that way, > you will have trouble making the same compromise work. > > Using the inharmonicity to "absorb" the comma is one way of making the piano > sound a little better in tune with itself. However, it remains true that if > you favor any one interval, octave, 5th, 3rd or otherwise (also double and > triple octaves), you will inevitably cause another interval to be more > compromised. > > Therefore, using a lot of stretch in the temperament range will cause your > 3rds to beat faster and more harshly but it can help you have less of a > problem making the outer octaves sound better in tune and have a more > brilliant, better projecting and appealing sound. Using the least amount of > stretch in the mid range will make close harmony played there sound much > sweeter. If the piano you are tuning will not be used by someone who plays > loud, fast and brilliant passages in the high treble but rather close harmony > mostly in the middle, you might well not want to see how far you can go with > the octave stretching compromises. > > Dr. Sanderson, the inventor of the Accu-Tuner suggests that an ideal octave > in the midrange be a 4:2 octave + 1 cent. That is to say, greater than a 4:2 > octave by a small amount. It may, in some cases be a 6:3 octave. I usually > use both the 4:2 and 6:3 tests to prove that I have a compromise between the > two unless I am going for a minimal or maximal amount of stretch. > > Here are some comments I made recently in a private post: > > <<<< I would like to put this question to some friends of me who is very good > jazzpianists. > Is it possible to ask them this question about stretch? > Have I got the right idea about stretch and will they understand the > question? >> > > I think some may understand the concept of stretched octaves and some may > not. Some may call it a brighter or a sharper tuning if it is stretched a > lot and a duller, softer, mellower or flatter tuning if it is not stretched. > One is not necessarily better than the other just as one temperament is not > better than the other, each one creates its own effect. > > <<Other tuners here tend to tune the "A" [minimal stretch], but I like "C" > [maximum stretch] the most (Maybe "B" [moderate stretch]in > the middle). > What do you like?>> > > I would say that my personal preference is the same as yours and it is > preferred by most tuners but some like the "A" or "B" description the best. > > <<Are there many different wishes here from pianists?>> > > Yes, and I think that their preferences are about the same as most piano > technicians'. You will occasionally meet someone who will deliberately tell > you not to stretch the octaves too much. You will also have some, perhaps > more, who will make a very deliberate point of telling you they want the > upper octaves tuned "sharp". You should do what the artist says in such a > case. > > > << Are there different wishes for different styles?>> > > Generally, for public performances of Jazz and Classical music of the > Romantic era, and piano concertos, you would choose type C [maximum stretch]. > For early music in a chamber setting, type A [minimum stretch]. For a > living room in someone's home, type B [moderate stretch] but you can also > choose any type in any situation for special reasons or to comply with a > specific request. > > If you are using a Historical Temperament, you would use type A with the > 17th Century temperaments, type B with the 18th Century and type C with the > 19th Century. Again however, you can choose differently than the usual, just > as you may choose to drink red wine with poultry rather than white and you > may have a dry white wine with a steak. It is all a matter of taste and > preference. > > << Am I on wrong track?>> > > In my opinion, you already have a good and correct idea about stretch. You > can educate the customer by telling them that the ear naturally wants to hear > pitches sharper, the higher you go on the scale. Because the piano strings > have this curious phenomenon called Inharmonicity, where the higher harmonics > of every string are very sharp, you can manipulate the tuning to take > advantage of this property to satisfy what the ear wants to really hear > anyway. > > Every tuning decision has its consequences, however. Any time you make any > given interval more in tune or pleasing to the ear, you cause another to be > less pleasing. Tuning will always be an art of compromise. > > Since the higher harmonics of any string are very sharp, very > disproportionately sharp, you cannot favor them except in the very highest > range of the piano. They are also quick to decay. This makes them less > important than some of the lower harmonics. Since you tune by ear, your ear > is probably making the best judgment already. Those who are dependent on > Electronic Tuner programs have not developed that judgment.>> > > The Accu-Tuner can tell you wether the piano you are working on has a low, > moderate or high degree of inharmonicity. This can also help you make the > decision about how much stretch may be appropriate. > > I hope this helps your understanding. > > Sincerest regards, > Bill Bremmer RPT > Madison, Wisconsin
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