Aural?

[Richard Brekne]

David Ilvedson wrote:

I deleted the first part as it seems we have come to aggreement so far... grin..

> >> There is nothing better, IMHO, as an ETD &
> > the ears (hey that would be cool, an ETC with ears).  You can't beat that
> > combination with a "certain something".
>
> >I think you misunderstand what I mean by that certain something... I say
> >this because as I meant the term to be understood, the two sentences you
> just
> >wrote are in conflict with one another. That "certain something" is exactly
> that
> >human
>
> ???????

Now its my turn to receive the "What the frog ? " symbol...grin. For
clarification I meant that that "certain something" is the human judgement
element. And that in the end is what we go by. You use an ETD to get you to a
point where your ear can take over.  It seems like in the first sentence you say
nothing is better then using an ETD and then letting your ears decide at the
end, and in the second sentence refute that very statement.. ( given what I
meant by "certain something" mind you).

>
> If you ever get a chance to play a Kurzweil electric piano, check out the G#
> below middle C.  The unison, if you can call it that, has a real good beat
> in it.  I believe that every single Kurzweil has the same beating G#.  I
> think it gives it a more piano sound.  I think that "certain something"
> might just be the errors they will inevitably have.

Grin... thats another "certain something" and another aspect of piano work. What
you say is true enough, but we were talking about tuning, and really from a bit
more of a philosophical veiwpoint. (Ginas origionating posting)

> Any tuning will have
> its share of compromise/errors and are part of a piano and we live with
> them.  Maybe this makes them a little more interesting?

Aggreed.

> When we try to tune
> each of the strings of a unison perfectly in tune with each other we
> inevitably fail and that's what makes a piano sound like a piano.  I believe
> you are using TuneLab?  How does your tuning fork/aural tuning measure up?
> Has it made you make a changes in your tuning?

I have used TuneLab in a completely different sense then it was meant to be
used. I tune A440 by ear and fork and do the temperament by ear. Then I measure
the partial ladders for each of these notes, and compare appropriate partials of
octaves upwards and downwards to these as I tune them. As I extend outwards I
need to measure more notes to be able to get enough information to tune the
extremeties. This is time consuming and I do it to train my ear and mind to
better hear and put into perspective what I am listening to. It has helped me
immensly, especially from an intellectual point of view. But it hasnt directly
changed my conception of stretch or anything. I suppose reading Baldersins book
influenced that more then anything else.

I scored 100 % on the pitch part of the test, coming within 0.1 cents of 440.
Tho I do not myself usually use a tuning fork to establish pitch. 440 is a
number and only a number.. makes absolutely no difference how you get pitch
setting done.

>
>
> > A SAT and
> > the RCT can get a 100% on all the sections just by stopping the lights.
>
> >We return to that human quality in the end.
>
> Exactly.  That is where I want to use my human ear, in the end.  Not at the
> beginning
> where it is wasted but when I have the string close to in tune.  After
> tension changes have happened and the string is ready to finish.

Different strokes for different folks... but again this really is off the point
of Ginas posting is it not ?

>
> Jim Coleman Sr. did a class on unisons sometime ago and he tuned the piano
> with I believe perfect 5ths (not sure exactly) but the point is that the
> entire
> class of piano tuners couldn't tell that it wasn't in equal temperment.  His
> point
> was the importance of the unison.  The class did perceive, define and judge
> his
> tuning What does this mean to human perception?

His tuning was no doubt fine indeed. It was consistant and followed a distinct
pattern. The exercise points out that tuning a piano to a particular
specification (ie temperament) is more then simple hearing. There are
relationships between partials we have to both understand intellectually and
learn to hear from that standpoint. We need to do this exactly so that when that
"certain something" has to take over.. we know we are at that point and are best
equipped to make good judgement as to what to do. Getting to this point with an
ETD or not is irrelevant as far as that goes.

> > Richard B. wrote:
> >
> > >if you cant hear a thing, their is no sense of its sound.

But this is still the essence of Ginas point as took it. All the rest of what we
have been talking about is more methodology me thinks.

> >
> > David Ilvedson, RPT
> >
>
> --
> Richard Brekne
> RPT, N.P.T.F.
> Bergen, Norway

--
Richard Brekne
RPT, N.P.T.F.
Bergen, Norway