stability of pitch raises

[Farrell]

Thank you for your reply David. Being only in my fourth year of tuning, I
still find it educational to hear what others do in various situations. That
is why I asked for clarification from Jon Page. Thanks for your input. I've
thrown a few comments in the text below, together with a few more questions
(hope you don't mind):

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vanderhoofven" <dkvander@janics.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: stability of pitch raises


> Dear Terry,
>
> If the piano is more than 4 cents away from the correct pitch it needs a
> separate pitch correction before the fine tuning.

Five cents is where I start charging extra for a pitch raise. I will do a
two pass tuning if the piano is two or more cents off.

> If it is a concert
> tuning, the pitch needs to be within 2 cents of the correct pitch before
> doing a fine tuning.

Absolutely. I have found soooo much improvement in my tunings by doing two
passes. For anyone paying full regular price for a tuning, I follow your
concert rule above. A one pass tuning on a piano 2 or 3 cents off will take
me an 60 to 75 minutes. A two pass tuning on the same piano will take me
about 25 min. for the raise, and about 45 min. for the tune. I still find
that surprising, but I'm starting to believe it. And the tunings are sooooo
much better.

>  The fine tuning follows immediately after the pitch
> raise, during the same tuning visit.  If it is a large pitch correction
and
> I am running short of time, I do as many passes as I can during the normal
> tuning time and schedule a follow-up tuning as appropriate.  If I have
> enough time, I do as many passes to get a solid tuning.
>
> If the piano is only 5 cents from the correct pitch, I might make only one
> pass, but I find that I still spend so much time checking the unisons that
> I could have gone ahead and done two passes.  A two pass tuning is more
> solid than a single pass tuning, at least for me.

You bet!

> If the piano is up to about 20 cents from the correct pitch It will take 2
> passes (pitch raise and fine tuning) with either RCT or SATII.  If the
> pitch is 20-50 cents from correct pitch, it will often take 2 passes with
> RCT and 3 passes with SATII for me.  If the piano is 50-100 cents from
> correct pitch, it will take 3 passes with RCT or SATII.  If the pitch is
> over 100 cents from the correct pitch it will take 3 passes with RCT and 4
> passes with SATII.  This is speaking from my personal experience.

I'm curious how you charge for pitch raises. Care to comment????? I pro-rate
a pitch raise between 5 and 20 cents (@ $2 per cent). From there I charge
$40 for each pitch raise pass. For the average 30 year old piano, I will be
a bit more aggressive that what you state above in that I will do up to
about a 50 to 70 cent pitch raise on one pass. I will do a 70 to 150 cent
flat piano in two pitch raise passes. I'll tend to be a bit more cautious
with an older piano......and real conservative with a 70+ year old piano. I
use the SAT III. I find that I need to use about 3/4 of the 25% pitch raise
function amount of overpull in the bass, just a tad (and I mean a hair) less
than the 25% pitch raise function amount of overpull in the tenor or middle
section, and the 33% pitch raise function amount of overpull for the treble
and high treble (top two sections on a four-section-scale grand and top
section in most verticals) works real well. 90% of the time I get within
about two cents with that schedule. Some pianos for whatever reason do not
work out as well - generally, tenor will come out sharp and treble/high
treble sharp or flat - but usually it works out amazingly well.

> My experience doing pitch raises is that with RCT the pitch raise seems to
> be closer to the correct pitch on every note than with SATII.  SAT does a
> nice pitch correction, but RCT is closer.

I have heard from others also that the RCT tends to do a little bit better
job on the pitch raise.

> Best wishes
>
> David Vanderhoofven
> Joplin, Missouri
>
> P.S.  And a note for Stephen Airy, I have done several pitch corrections
of
> over 250 cents in 2 hours, including a fairly stable fine tuning.  It is
> possible to do the first pass with no mutes at all, but beyond the first
> pass, I find it an exercise in futility to tune without mutes.  I
encourage
> you to get a tuning lever and practice tuning your own piano so you can
> have some practical experience.
>
> And as far as building a piano as small and cheaply as possible, many
piano
> makers have tried to do that and gone out of business trying to cater to
> the lowest denominator.  I personally dislike tuning small pianos and
> playing small pianos isn't that great either.  I encourage you to continue
> to study all you can about piano technology.  Perhaps you can design a
> small portable piano that weighs less than 100 lbs.  Let us know when you
> do.  I would think your greatest challenge is finding a structural
material
> that is stronger than cast iron without all the weight of cast iron.
>
> Terry Farrell wrote:
>
> >"If the piano is more than 8 cents off pitch it should be tuned a second
=
> >time that day
> >to even off the tension. Just think how well the piano will sound a few =
> >years later..."
> >
> >I'm trying to understand what you are saying here Jon. Are you saying
> >that if the piano is more than 8 cents flat (or sharp) you should first
> >do a pitch raise, and then do a separate tuning immediately after (or
> >later in the day for some reason?)? Please differentiate between tuning
> >and pitch raise and how many passes you might commonly do. If a piano is
> >5 cents flat do you commonly only do one pass, raising the pitch 5 cents
> >while tuning? Thanks.
> >
> >Terry Farrell
>