> If folks are habitually doing two pass tunings anyway, and since they're > probably using an ETD that does pitch raises within a couple of cents of > dead on in one pass (as we read repeatedly), why would they find it > necessary to charge anything above the cost of a tuning for a pitch > adjustment? Doesn't the following answer your first question? The following is from a previous post. I have your answer - from my perspective. Keep in mind that I am not able to do these 6 minute pitch raises and 20 minute tunings - yet. If my first pass starts with the pitch within a couple cents, any pitch correction will be minor and I can just whip though the pass (whip - relatively speaking). If my first pass is a significant pitch correction it will take a bit longer because I will be adjusting my SAT every octave or so - more frequently if the flat pitch varies greatly from note to note. It will also slow me up a bit more because the piano likely has not been tuned for many years and I will want to drop the pitch a tad with my first motion in case there is any corrosion between the string and top bearing point. I will also make my tension increase slower, the more corrosion is apparent and the older the piano is. So, there are a couple factors that make the first pass take longer as the pitch is farther off to start with - a good ten minute difference for me often. Beyond that, the tuning itself will take more time. If that first pass started out within 2 cents, it may have been a 20 to 25 minute pass. The tuning pass will be so close that it (even for me) will go lightning fast (again, relatively speaking). On a decent piano, my tuning pass in this situation will sometimes be as fast as 40 minutes. If the first pass had raised the pitch 50 cents or whatever, the tuning pass will start out close, but many notes will be a couple/few cents off. Maybe you will have that one octave in the tenor or treble that did not cooperate and you need to make one quick separate pass over it to straighten out the pitch raise. When doing the tuning pass after the significant pitch correction, I will spend significantly more time on each string - a tad more to get it where I want (just because it was further off to start with) - but probably more significantly because I will work the string a bit to be sure that I get the tension in all the string segments evened out. Especially in the treble sections. You can just sit there and repeatedly & rapidly & firmly & with a controlled appropriate amount of authority, depress the key (note, I never whack the key) and watch the pitch go down. I try to make all these notes as stable as I reasonably can (I also do some extra whacking - oops, did I say that! - during the pitch raise). So the tuning pass also takes more time to do after the larger pitch raise. My tuning pass time after a 50 cent or more pitch raise will usually be in the 60 to 75 minutes range. So therefore, the 50 cent pitch raise took me about 40 more minutes to complete the two passes than the two quick passes for the up-to-pitch piano. I charge $40 for one pitch raise pass. That is also why I pro-rate the small pitch raise in the 5 to 20 cent range ($2 per cent in that range) That's where I am at. I trust that answers your question. Feel less bothered now? (he said in a non-sarcastic way) :-) I look at where I am at, and I know anyone can say that "gee whiz, Jim Coleman or Randy Potter (or about a billion other tuners) is a better piano tuner than you - they are faster also". And they would be right. I know that. We all gotta start somewhere. I do try very hard to progress and do the best job I can. That is likely why perhaps I usually am doing two pass tunings - sometimes perhaps in situations that do not warrant it - to compensate for some of my shortcomings. I don't think I charge more than anyone else. And considering my typical clientele (nobody even has a clue whether the piano is in tune or not - I know that), I am quite sure I am making them happy. I had a new client call for an appt. yesterday. I gave him the standard thing about it might need a pitch raise. He came right back with "Oh, I know it will need a pitch raise. It was last tuned at 435, and I want it up to 440". Totally blew me out of my chair. I had never had anyone even know what those numbers might mean. I'll be watching real close how he likes the tuning I put on his piano (newer Yamaha Disklavier). It is entirely possible that I might even do the pitch raise, and then do a two pass tuning - again, just to compensate for whatever shortcomings I may have and just because I am not so self-confident at this early stage of my tuning career. I realize that after tuning 50,000 pianos one can develop an acute sense of what and how much is appropriate for each situation. I'm not there yet. But, I am getting there. Ssssslllllloooooowwwwwwllllllllyyyyyyyy! Take care Ron. Now for the second question. > I also asked another related question regarding how those who charge for > pitch adjustments based on how far off pitch the piano is, determine how > far off pitch the piano is. What I do is sample the As and Ds real quick and basically take an average. Or if the piano is way flat on the top half, I'll base my pitch raise fee on the worst area (but its like gotta be at least a whole octave or so). The point being I am not looking for one odd note that is twice as flat as anything else, but rather if there is a large flat area, I will base my charges on that, because it will affect the whole piano. I charge $40 for one pitch raise pass. Generally speaking, one pass will take care of a piano that is up to 50 to 75 cents flat. Less if it is really old/corroded. I will commonly do up to 150 cents flat in two passes - first one with no overpull, second one with appropriate overpull. I also pro-rate the small pitch raise in the 5 to 20 cent range ($2 per cent in that range). I feel that generally reflects the extra effort involved. I would rather just charge by the hour. But folks like to hear a set fee for basic services like these, so that is what I do. Does all this seem clear enough? I certainly do not expect you to agree or approve, but does all this answer your questions? Terry Farrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Nossaman" <RNossaman@KSCABLE.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: Re: stability of pitch raises (Ron's question) > OK folks, > I got a couple of good responses to the actual question early on, but this > has once again wandered off into a series of answers not relating to the > question asked. The question was, and still is: > > ************************************************************************ > If folks are habitually doing two pass tunings anyway, and since they're > probably using an ETD that does pitch raises within a couple of cents of > dead on in one pass (as we read repeatedly), why would they find it > necessary to charge anything above the cost of a tuning for a pitch > adjustment? > *********************************************************************** > > I do, believe me, understand that it takes longer and is more work to do a > two pass pitch raise and tuning than a one pass tuning. I also understand, > believe me, that you can't do a substantial (no numbers, just somewhere off > pitch) pitch correction as accurately in one pass as in two. That's why I > didn't ask that particular question - nor am I likely to. I am, in > practice, an active tuner/technician, and live this stuff on a daily basis > so I'm quite familiar with the reactions of pianos to pitch adjustments. I > don't need the sales pitch, I'm merely asking for an explanation answering > my question. If anyone is interesting in clearing this up for me, please > read the question again and, if what you habitually do corresponds to the > question in that you (1) habitually do two pass tunings, (2) tune with an > ETD, and (3) charge extra for pitch adjustments, I'd like to hear your > reasoning justifying the extra charge. > > I also asked another related question regarding how those who charge for > pitch adjustments based on how far off pitch the piano is, determine how > far off pitch the piano is. I still haven't gotten an answer on this one, > which baffles me. This has gotten so much traffic through the years that I > was sure I'd get a veritable avalanche of cogent and clever methods from > those who habitually quote cents deviation in their posts about pitch > adjustments. How can one compute charges on something they can't define? > > Maybe it's just me, but I find honest answers to these sort of simple > fundamental questions to be far more valuable, as well as far more > difficult to get, than information on how to get tape residue off of keytops. > > Ron N >
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