stability of pitch raises (Ron's question)

[Farrell]

> So here is the question, restated so I don't have to go dig it out again:
> For those who prorate pitch adjustment charges according to how far off
> pitch the piano is, how do you determine how far off pitch the piano is?

I thought I had answered this one clearly also, but maybe a couple examples
would help (examples are a 1972 Kohler & Campbell console - average
condition). I measure the initial pitch of As between and including A1 and
A7 and I measure the pitch of all Ds between and including D1 and D7. I'll
throw out one or two outliers and use the greatest amount of pitch deviation
that appears to be representative of at least one section of piano.

Example #1: The As were 8, 6, 22, 24, 16, 18, 28 cents flat, respectively.
The Ds were similar. I would say the piano is more than 20 cents flat and
this client will be charged for one full pitch raise pass plus the tuning
fee.

Example #2: The As were 25, 26, 25, 25, 42, 38, 40 cents flat, respectively.
I did not measure the Ds (it sounded like other notes were consistent with
this). I would say the piano is 40 cents flat and this client will be
charged for one full pitch raise pass plus the tuning fee. Regular tuning
charge for a subsequent tuning pass is additional.

Example #3: The As were 3, 4, 15, 16, 12, 13, 14 cents flat, respectively.
The Ds were 4, 5, 16, 15, 11, 14, 14 cents flat, respectively. The center
section is about 15 cents flat. I will charge my client $30 to raise this
piano to standard pitch ($2 per cent flat, up to $40 per pass). Regular
tuning charge for a subsequent tuning pass is additional.

Example #4: The As were 0, 0, 5, 6, 7, 5, 6 cents flat, respectively. The Ds
were 0, 0, 5, 6, 7, 5, 6 cents flat, respectively. The center section is
about 6 cents flat. I will charge my client $12 to raise this piano to
standard pitch ($2 per cent flat, up to $40 per pass). Regular tuning charge
for a subsequent tuning pass is additional.

Example #5: The As were 4, 4, 0, 8, 2, 5, 4 cents flat, respectively. The Ds
were 4, 3, 0, 7, 3, 5, 4 cents flat, respectively. All sections average less
than 5 cents flat. I will not charge my client to raise this piano to
standard pitch (5-cent threshold for pitch raising fees). Regular tuning
charge for a subsequent tuning pass will be charged. In my opinion, this
piano will have a noticably better tuning with two passes.

Example #6: The As were +2, +4, -4, -4, +2, +2, +2 cents off pitch,
respectively. The Ds were +2, +4, -4, -4, +2, +2, +2 cents off pitch,
respectively. All sections average less than 5 cents off pitch. I will not
charge my client to raise this piano to standard pitch (5-cent threshold for
pitch raising fees). Regular tuning charge for a subsequent tuning pass will
be charged. In my opinion, this piano will have a noticably better tuning
with two passes. I would be using a small pitch offset in the various
sections to help the first pass come closer to pitch. One pass would tend to
leave the piano a tad sharp in bass and treble and a bit flat in tenor

Example #7: The As were 0, 0, 2, 2, 2, 1, 3 cents flat, respectively. The Ds
were 0, 0, 1, 3, 2, 2, 3 cents flat, respectively. All sections average less
than 5 cents flat. I will not charge my client to raise this piano to
standard pitch (5-cent threshold for pitch raising fees). Regular tuning
charge for a subsequent tuning pass will be charged. In my opinion, this
piano will have a noticably better tuning with two passes.

Example #8: The As were 90, 75, 60, 58, 75, 85, 90 cents flat, respectively.
The Ds were similar. The treble section is about 85 cents flat. I know that
the treble will be more than 100 cents flat by the time my pitch raise will
progress to that point. To minimize the risk of string breakage I will
recommend one pitch raise pass for the bass and tenor sections, and two
passes through the treble section - the first targeting standard pitch with
no overpull, the second with the 33% overpull. 1-1/2 total pitch raises. I
will charge my client $60 to raise this piano to standard pitch ($40 per
full pitch raise pass). Regular tuning charge for a subsequent tuning pass
is additional.

This is indeed NOT an exact science. But I do believe it is a reasonable way
to characterize the state of pitch for the piano. It is the method I have
found to best characterize how much effort will be involved in getting the
piano up to standard pitch. If I am going to charge extra for a pitch raise,
and base my fee on how many pitch raises it will take, and base how many
pitch raises it will take on the degree of flatness, I need to come up with
a number. This process gives me a good working number.

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Nossaman" <RNossaman@KSCABLE.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: stability of pitch raises (Ron's question)


> >Define two pass tunings, please. If you mean raising or
> >lowering the pitch, no I don't habitually do that. If you mean going back
> >over quite a bit of the piano to make sure it's a stable tuning, yep I do
> >that almost every tuning.
>
> Hi Gina,
> Two pass tuning - going over the whole piano twice. That's it. Somewhere
> along the line, someone mentioned that they habitually made two passes
over
> the piano while doing a standard tuning, and a bunch of other two pass
> tuners soon confessed that they did too. I suspect we all do a final check
> and touch up before closing the lid, but these folks say they make two
full
> passes on every single tuning they do.
>
>
> >Yes I use an ETD. I love my Accutuner!
>
> That would be the Point 2 pre qualification.
>
>
>
> >When a piano is sharp or flat more than 5 cents, I am not capable of
tuning
> >it in one pass so that the tuning will last long enough and stay stable
long
> >enough for me to collect my check, gather my tools, get to my car and
drive
> >away before some, or quite a few, notes slip out of tune. Ergo, it is
> >necessary for me to tune it at least twice, sometimes more depending on
how
> >far out it is, to make it stable so that I am happy with the result and
feel
> >good about collecting $$$ for the work I have just done. When I do extra
> >work, I charge extra for it.
>
> And that is, once again, my point in asking the question. If someone is
> habitually doing two pass tunings, and the pitch raise with an ETD is as
> easy , quick, and accurate as we read here continually, what's the
> justification for the extra charge when it doesn't take appreciably more
> work and time? That's why my question was posed to those who HABITUALLY do
> full two pass tunings, use an ETD AND charge extra for pitch adjustments.
> It just doesn't compute for me.
>
>
> >Missed the question so...
> >If the piano is more than 5 cents off, overall, and it is necessary to
tune
> >the piano at 440, then I will do a pitch raise/lower. Since I am doing
extra
> >work, I charge extra for the extra work. When a piano is off pitch fairly
> >equally overall and is only a few cents off A440 and if the client is ok
> >with allowing me to float pitch, I will tune it where it is and not do a
> >pitch raise/lower and do not charge for something I didn't have to do.
>
> So here is the question, restated so I don't have to go dig it out again:
> For those who prorate pitch adjustment charges according to how far off
> pitch the piano is, how do you determine how far off pitch the piano is?
> Caution, this is apparently a lot harder question than it would seem to
be.
>
>
>
> >>How can one compute charges on something they can't define?>
> >
> >I do define it using my Accutuner. I measure the piano overall before I
> >begin tuning so that I know about how much it is off pitch overall.
>
> Please define measuring the pitch overall. That was the second question.
>
>
> >None of my charges are set forth as punishment because the client hasn't
> >tuned their piano recently. My charges are based on the amount of work,
and
> >especially the extra amount of work I have to do.
>
> Which is why I originally asked question #1, to determine how there was
> extra work involved when folks were already doing two pass tunings and the
> pitch adjustment was so quick, easy, and accurate with an ETD. If it's a
> purely punitive charge, so be it. That qualifies as a reason just like any
> other. I'm just asking for the real stuff instead of the smoke. This whole
> thing keys on the premise of habitual two pass tunings with an ETD, so
> anything deviating from that doesn't really apply to the question.
>
>
> >Having said all the above, there are many times I do pitch raises and do
not
> >charge. Client relationships are always a factor for me. A steady client
> >whose piano has reacted adversely to humidity changes, yeah I'll pitch
> >raise/lower it and not charge. I do note it on the invoice though. And
for
> >me, this is one of the bestest reasons for being an independent
technician.
> >I get to decide what I charge and when to charge it. :-)
>
> Don't we all? Then there's the touch up regulation and voicing, and the
> compulsory bench leg tightening. We'd all make more money if we were total
> jerks.
>
>
> >Good questions Ron. It's been enlightening and interesting reading the
> >responses.
> >
> >Gina
>
> Just getting that way.
> Ron N
>