Ed: I agree with everything you have said. I have to admit I am an unusual music listener. I've been affected/warped by my years of not only listening to ET, but mentally evaluating the rightness/wrongness of music by it. I also am not attracted by the "sonority" of the calm keys. Yes, I have been warped by ET. At this age, I'm probably too lazy to make a full fledged effort to get over this warp! I'm very happy to tune any temperament for people, and have periodically tuned some pianos at the school in Kirnberger, Young, Moore and Coleman 11. I hope some of these students who are so much younger than I can come to appreciate different temperaments more than I ever will. I also appreciate the people like you who have lead the crusade for temperament choice. I don't really need something to "draw me in" to music. I'm not a casual listener. Music playing while I'm doing something else is quite a distraction -- as I want to listen rather than do what I'm supposed to be doing. If I'm listening to our classical station here when I'm driving, I find I need to listen to the end of the piece before I can turn off the car and go about my business. I've been late to things many times because of this delay. I'm also not as good a driver when music is playing, so for safety's sake, I usually leave the radio off. It's interesting how music, style, temperament etc. affects us all differently. dave *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12/22/2002 at 11:31 AM A440A@aol.com wrote: >Dave writes: >> When I listened to the 2nd movement of the Pathetique on Ed's >>Temperament CD it was so obvious I couldn't continue listening. As >> an ET lover personally, I've not listened to the entire movement. >> That's because my ear/brain have been forever altered by 63 years of >> listening to ET. > > AAAYYEEEE! I knew it when we did it, and I did it myself at first! >"I >feel your pain"... >We debated the use of the Kirnberger for that piece, even listened to a >couple of other tunings that had less tempering in those most remote keys. > >However, the choice was made on a combination of Enid Katahn's musical >judgement and my desire to place a full comma harmony out there where we >could see what the world thought of it. I have gotten two kinds of widely >disparate, but strongly held lines of feedback from it, we could perhaps >profit from at least considering the differences. > In Op 13 (Pathetique), the 2nd mvt(marked "adagio cantabile) is in >Ab. >In the particular tuning we used on it, this key has a full 21.5 cent >third >as its tonic. This seems to represent the limit that any of the >temperament >authors allowed in their WT's. (the MT's in various degrees contain >wider >thirds than this, ranging from high 20's to the mid 30 cent range, 1/4 >comma, >of course suffering from the diesis, or 41 cents). > When we first listened to it, the tempering just killed me. The >hair >stood up on the back of my neck. I thought it was going to be pretty >rough >on anybody's ears. The last few years among the technicians has sorta >proven >that out, though there are many techs that have told me they really liked >the >feel of it. However, there are more than techs listening to this, and >that >is where an altogether different response came from. > When I voiced reservations about so "expressive" a third, Enid >countered >by saying, "It's the Pathetique! It is SUPPOSED to create a very uneasy >and >gripping feeling in this section, this is torment, pathos"! The idea is, >of >course, that you won't be left out there in horrible-land, and when you >return to the home key, you will feel an emotional charge that you could >not >have gotten without the detour. Basically, your "tight shoe" theory of >musical harmony and feeling. Cool, I thought, why question the informed >artist on taste? > From the musicians and other listeners, there hasn't been a track on >that >CD that has caused anywhere near as much positive comment as the 2nd mvt >of >Op. 13 ! The non-technician musicians and listeners seem to find that >particular piece of music strongly affecting. They feel it is most >beautiful >and expressive. More than one has said they felt "transported". Can any >music aspire to do more than "transport"? I think not. > I was surprised; what I had envisioned as a point of debate for us >tuners,(what does a full comma sound like on a modern concert grand???) >turns >out to be the most captivating passage on the whole recording for people >that >could be our customers! This tells me that we are all conditioned by our >environment, but the technicians are conditioned on technical grounds and >the >music lover just might be responding to something less measurable. >Something >emotional. The tenseness that techs hear in a third which is 8 cents >wider >than "normal" is unpleasant. We aren't going to get emotional about a >particular key being so far from "in tune", but the music listener is >listening for different reasons, and THEY sure seem to be getting >something >attractive out of this. > So, it seems that if we try to assign a value to this width of >third, >we have a paradox. How can it be so reviled on one side of the audience, >and >so endearing to another. Is it any wonder that temperament debates so >often >seem wildly at odds? > > I think the value question turns on the definition of meaning, ie, >"Meaning is the result of a message being received, not a unique property >of >the message, itself". So, what is the result of this 21 cents? The same >wide third carries a different message to the tuner than it does to the >music >listener, and both have very different responses, which indicate what >"meaning" was created in the individuals. The former has the urge to quash >the pain, "narrow that sucker down to where we can live with it". >However, >the listeners often feel an attraction, an inability to listen to anything >else while it is going on. Several have mentioned that this is the one >piece >that they stop what they are doing to actively listen to. I think that is >good for all of us. > That is my goal, to make piano music so attractive that people will >turn off the phone, or stop dusting the house, or anything else they are >doing, and make the listening experience the activity of the moment. >Unequal >tempering is showing an ability to help in this, so I pursue it and >encourage others to at least inform themselves and try it. > Dave, I know that from our tuning perspective, that section is harsh >and >distracting. However, if you can listen to the entire piece as a whole, >you >may find that Ab's expressiveness, when performing its musico/emotive role >(setting the stage for the 3rd mvt), might come to have its own charm. >Maybe >not, I know, but it's worth a shot, huh?? >(I hate caviar, though some have looked at me like I was crazy for it). >Regards, >Ed Foote RPT >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/ >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html ><A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html "> >MP3.com - Six Degrees of Tonality</A> >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives _____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________
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