after touch comes key dip

[antares]

> From: "Isaac OLEG" <oleg-i@wanadoo.fr>
> Reply-To: oleg-i@wanadoo.fr, Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:34:19 +0200
> To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Subject: RE: after touch comes key dip
> 
> Hey hey Andre !
> 
> You guess :
> 
>> 1. Everybody here knows about this issue already so it's old hat.
> 
> I'll vote for that, on a such high level list anyway that is very
> understandable.

sure, I agree.
> 
>> But in the end Isaac, we must keep in mind the pressure of
>> each individual key frame bolt. If it is too much, the tone will be
> 'too
>> dominant', if it is too little, the tone will be less strong and the
> key frame might rattle.
>> Be it a Steinway or a Yamaha, the principle remains the same.
> 
> Yes, but : on Yamaha , a minimum amount of pressure seem advisable, or
> the tone will be too weak and may be a little bland.

That is to say, that with Yamaha the pressure is strongest in the middle.
> 
> Checking with 2 fingers the bedding at every screw as usual can well
> not be enough pressure on these actions, not rattling, but needing
> more ?

No, so a little more pressure in the middle and light pressure at both ends.
> 
> May we evaluate the weight repartition, depending of the kind of
> action , key frame and action frame, so we check the bedding at the
> screws or lifting the action frame , depending of the weight of the
> action ?

With Steinways we pick up the bedding screw with two fingers. With Yamaha's
we tap with either two fingers or the fist, while lifting the action by the
hammer rail.
> 
> And, are the last extreme screws to be regulated with a little less
> pressure, as being external ? If giving them the same pressure (sound
> & feel ), I often find them to be screwed too much and then the global
> pressure is becoming too high (I have to adjust the center more
> afterthat .

Yep, see above.
> 
> If lost, is it better to go thru the whole process again (beginning
> with the center screws) ?

Right.
> 
> Schimmel seems to recommend the screws to be regulated from the
> external towards the middle on their actions (hard wood keyframe) I
> can't see the advantage of it, or may be it helps to avoid too much
> pressure at the extremes.

I don't know about Schimmel, I have not been there, so I myself would be
using my experience and try to figure out what's best.
I am sure I would find the best position, in the end it's just a technical
matter I had to solve many times. As long as you understand what it is
about, that's what counts.


> 
> 
> I call you sportsman not because your fast running, but just to say
> that your regulating game is like sport. In any shop I've always seen
> the use of the regulating rack for first regulation. While I used to
> find it easier to have a rough working action, I now make the first
> pass on my knees, trying to aim for a more definitive work
> immediately.

More intelligent, faster, and definitely more economical.
> 
> That is a lot of sensitivity, calmness, Zen and clear state of mind
> necessary to obtain a good result as that.

You got it Isaac, I am convinced that you will be one of the leading
technicians in France if you go on with what you are doing.
 
> A long time after I've been in your place was necessary for me to
> begin to have enough control on all that (6 months at last) too often
> I get lost because of loss of concentration.

I had the same experience every time I came back from a factory training. I
had lost myself by more or less emptying myself, adapting my personality to
educational authority and thereby creating a void to be filled with new
knowledge.
It every time took me a while to regain my balance, realizing what had
happened, and then find strength and new confidence.
> 
> I particularly like the little yellow thing check at the end of the
> job.

Right, if we have done well, the yellow thing will make us smile and feel
good.
> 
> And sure it is easier to use standard measurements, and adjust the
> action on a bench ,but it does not work so well, with pianist looking
> at you with big smiling eyes and asking "how did you do that ?".
> 
> So that's why I call you sportsmen !

Geee, that reminds me of the fact that today I was tired and weak and did
not do my obligatory jogging in ze park, but thanks anyway (;
> 
>> What I meant to say is that by pressing down the key very
>> lightly, the hammer should move upwards 0,4 mm.
> 
> Thanks, If the finger is yet in the punching, I bet you check with a
> little pressure but up and down little move to have a feel of the
> jack's move too is not it ? or is it only hammer related and you have
> to use a calm definite move of the key so the letoff move is complete
> but not too much pressure is given ?

It might be best to press down three keys at the same time, until you reach
the moment of let off/drop. Then wait a sec and with an alert sense go
through the movement and repeat this procedure on at least 6 spots of the
keyboard to make sure the motion and touch is the same.

Just a really gentle down pressure (make sure you have a firm front
punching) should be enough to see what's going on.
> 
> I've discover that having the springs well regulated is a necessity to
> have a clear reading of aftertouch.

Yes, otherwise the touch is obscured by unnecessary spring tension / power.
> 
> Actually most of the Steinway I see tend to have a more than necessary
> Abnick move, caused by a slightly larger drop (jack being a little
> misaligned to keep the clear touch) and that oblige to play too
> strong, while the tone is more closed that it could be. But indeed
> that is then easier to maintain the voicing, as the hammer is less
> sensitive.
> Pianists seem to like to have that extra weight at hand, but low
> repetition is poor with that 3+ mm drop move.

May I remind you of the uniform movement we talked about of let off and
drop?
Regulating let off and drop this way creates a number of facts :

No loss of time and energy
The clearest transmission of energy
The highest amount of energy
and the heaviest friction at that particular moment.
> 
> 
>>> I bet it is different from action to action, depending of
>> the kind of whippen, the position of the roller on the lever,
>> 
>> But it should not differ.
>> The only difference comes with harder or softer front punching.
>> I am of the opinion that soft front punching should be
>> replaced immediately.
>> In our work place we do this as a standard.
> 
> I do the same actually, I am the biggest customer at Yamahas for their
> front punching ;>) On all precedent repairs the punching are changed
> too.

Than you have clearly understood the why.
> 
> What I mean with the hammer rise (while I understand too that "it
> should not differ" ),is that, depending of the position of the roller
> on the balance lever, the position of the axe of the whippen lever,
> the rise of the hammer is more or less pronounced. On a Steinway with
> shimmed whippen flanges I worked on yesterday, when I have a 0.4
> hammer rise, the move of the jack after the roller is too large, and
> so is the aftertouch at the key. May be not very exact, but my guess
> is that the jack is near the axe of the lever then and that is why the
> ratio is altered.
> 
> But I better keep it simple I guess !

If we are still talking about after touch.....yes.

All we need is a precisely defined front punching, a fabulous regulation and
finally..when we save the after touch/striking distance for last, an even
0,4 mm after touch all over the keyboard.
> 
>>>> Pianists often find this moment of after-touch the most
>> important
> 
> And they call that "pressure reserve" in French.

Obviously, because that's what it is.
> 
>>>> 'Hard landing, neutral/medium landing, soft landing'.
> 
> This is a piano technician mind opener (as can openers but more
> useful)

make sure you know that there no worms in the can....  (;
> 
>>> Warms Regards from France.
>> 
>> Is it warm in France then?
>> or are your eyes warm?
>> (;
> 
> Not really warm, more rainy than necessary I think.
> 
> Je regarde devant pour entendre de toi.
> 
> (Looking forward to hear from you)

It means then that your face, at this moment at least, must be positioned
towards the North where I live.
Don't do it for too long, you might get a stiff neck....hey! joke..ok!
besides, facing the south must be nicer, especially in la douce France.

santé, mon ami!
> 
>> moi,  l'oreille
> 
> "Le Zoreil " are our name (us continental) for the people living in
> warm sunny places as Les Antilles, la Guyana, Madagascar, and so on...

That;s a nice thought but it could also be a Japanese person saying
soleil..get it? (;>))
> 
> Bye.
> 
> Isaac OLEG Zoreil

Grazie a lei....Zoreil
> 
> 
> "Depending of the music, generally speaking no much harm may happen
> when the music is played (but exceptions remains) "

How about the decibels.....

?

friendly greetings
from

Antares,

Amsterdam, Holland

"where music is, no harm can be"

visit my website at :  http://www.concertpianoservice.nl/