Dave, The molding is very thin, but proportionally the felt is round all around it. Nowadays there is so little felt there that the treble is always very thin on these instruments. And lacquered with collodium in almost the last section often. Isaac OLEG Entretien et reparation de pianos. PianoTech 17 rue de Choisy 94400 VITRY sur SEINE FRANCE tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98 fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90 cell: 06 60 42 58 77 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org > [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la > part de David M. Porritt > Envoye : mardi 3 juin 2003 01:55 > A : pianotech@ptg.org > Objet : Re: hammers > > > Andre: > > Having read your take on hammers I have a question. I have a church > here that has a Bechstein "EN" concert grand, but it was built back > when the had 88 agraffes. I need to replace the hammers, > but the top > octave really needs very thin hammers in order to fit between the > belly rail and still not hit the agraffes. You stated that > Bechsteins that have pointy hammers sound bad. Any > suggestions???????? > > dave > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 6/2/2003 at 10:04 PM antares@euronet.nl wrote: > > >On maandag, jun 2, 2003, at 11:03 Europe/Amsterdam, Dave Nereson > wrote: > >> > >> What?? The Steinways I've seen have always had an > egg-shaped > >> hammer. Aren't we sposeta file trying to remove only one layer > of > >> felt, or enough to remove the string grooves, without > changing the > > >> shape of the whole hammer (unless it's a grossly misshapen mess > due to > >> someone else's botch job)? > > > >Alright Dave, my explanation.......... > > > >Let me first state the following : I have only limited experience > with > >Steinways built in New York, so the Steinways I am talking > about are > > >Hamburg Steinways and they ARE different. > >The Steinways built in Hamburg have Renner hammers with > Wurzen felt. > >Those hammers are very round from the beginning and after first > voicing > >they are filed into a diamond shape, and much more 'diamondy' then > you > >(or I) would have imagined (it is actually frightening at first to > see > >how small a STW becomes after first filing. > >This filing process is pretty extreme, but it does give > the STW's a > >certain 'edge' and brilliance you won't get if you leave them > >un-diamond-filed. > > > > > >> And why would a Bechstein change for the worse with a > >> diamond-shaped hammer? > > > >Because certain instruments ask for a hammer shape that causes more > or > >less overtones. > >The Bechstein grand piano does not ask for a hammer which causes > extra > >brilliancy as the instrument itself already has a certain type of > high > >overtone sound. Give it more or too much, and you will make it an > ugly > >yelling monster with a pierced and shrill voice. > > > > > >> > >> At Yamaha's Little Red Schoolhouse, they explained that > Yamaha > >> purposely shapes their hammers with more of a diamond- than an > >> egg-shape. > > > >Sure, but look at the older type Yamaha's please and the > hammers you > > >order for those instruments. You will notice that they are > round and > > >pear shaped from the beginning. > >The hammers for Yamaha's started to change into a more diamondy > shape > >with the introduction of the CFIII-S and at the same the > introduction > >of the Wurzen felt, mind you. > >The Wurzen felt is a much different kind of felt than the felt > Yamaha > >uses on the regular - not hand made - models. It causes a > different > > >tone and asks for a different treatment too. I can tell you this > >because I had (private) lessons in Wurzen felt voicing in the > Yamaha > >CFIII-S department (within the factory), the Steinway factory in > >Hamburg and the Bechstein factory in Berlin. > >(At one time I met the technical director of Yamaha in Hamburg - > Herr > >Professor Dokter L|demann (ja ja) - and I proudlu told him about > 'my > >discovery' of the 'new' Wurzen felt, to which he sneered by telling > me > >that already some time ago he had made the same discovery and that > >already they had proto-type CFIII-S actions with Wurzen hammers! > Later > >that year, while being in Hamburg, he summoned me to a > secret place > >where he showed me one of those 'Wurzen hammer' actions. > >At Yamaha they are now changing there hammers because they > have also > > >changed their models. Those things go hand in hand. > > > > > >> Are we saying that if the felt is on the soft side > (Steinway, > >> especially early ones, and even late ones, compared to Asian > hammers), > >> it will compress too much on a hard blow, flattening out and > >> cancelling partials, giving a dull tone, so we should file them > to > >> more of a diamond shape? How do you do that without cutting > across > >> layers of felt in the hammer? > > > >There is difference in felt making between felt makers. One of the > >hammer makers pre-sands its hammers and makes its felt is much and > much > >more dense. This causes a brilliant tone from the beginning but > after a > >year or two the instruments quickly lose their erstwhile beauty > because > >the fibers in the hammers, which were much more massed up together > in > >the first place (and thereby lost a lot of their natural > resilience) > > >become kind of hard thudding dead clonkers, to be replaced as soon > as > >possible. Those clonkers are dead lumps if felt, there is no more > >'life' in them. > >I have experience with those clonkers for instance on > Fazioli's and > >Seilers. > >Especially one Fazioli concert grand (and initially a nice Seiler > too) > >I remember very well. It was a gift from, I think, a bank > to a brand > > >new Theater somewhere here in Holland. The Fazioli became - > extremely - > >ugly within 3 years and was given away!, to be replaced by a brand > new > >Steinway D (although I wish that I could have heard/played one of > Ron > >Overs' grands as he is, according to me, one of the leading piano > >makers in the world). > >The Wurzen felt is not sanded from the beginning and the highly > >resilient felt layers stay intact, causing the same very > lively tone > > >that the early Steinways had in earlier days. > > > >> And if the felt is dense (Asian and others) and already > >> diamond-shaped (Yamaha and other Asian pianos), then it should > have a > >> richer tone because it does not flatten out and cancel > partials? But > >> you said YAM's change for the worse with a > diamond shape. What do > >> you mean, "change"? They already have the diamond shape....??? > > > >YAM's change for the worse if you re-shape their hammers as if they > are > >modern (Hamburg) STW's. Why? because it alters the tone in > the wrong > > >way. The tone becomes overstrained and hyper, with the emphasis on > the > >higher partials which the Yamaha does not need as they are already > >pretty brilliant. If we take the development of Yamaha's into > >consideration we may notice that the early Yamaha's were > shrill and > >tinkly instruments. They clearly were accepted by the Japanese > >consumers (at the time) but Yamaha had to adapt to a more 'Western > >taste' of listening, which, over the years, resulted in a neutral > kind > >of Steinway clone, but without the 'boom' and richness of > said STW. > >(they are built completely different in the end and have gone their > own > >way) > >In my perception of, and experience with, piano sounds, > the shape of > a > >hammer has to adapt to the characteristics of a soundboard. The > >soundboard (and the strings), asks for a certain > 'commotion', by in > >fact a very specific kind of hammer strike, that will cause it to > sound > >in such a way that we as listeners will like and thus > approve of. A > >Bechstein with a sharp protruding diamond shape hammers will > definitely > >sound different than with a more rounded off, egg shaped, hammer. A > STW > >with a Bechstein hammer will sound a little dull, without the > specific > >STW brilliance and color gradation we expect from it. A > Bvsendorfer > >with a STW hammer will 'speak too loud' and thereby lose its > romantic > >harmonics. > >A Fazioli would definitely be a more interesting instrument, > musically > >speaking, with Wurzen hammers. One of the much heard complaints > about > >Fazioli's is that they sound so very loud and too uniform, without > any > >change of 'color', which makes especially Bechsteins and > Bvsendorfers > >so attractive and magically divers. > >Instead, the Fazioli maker wishes for his instruments to SOUND and > >SOUND, as it were to prove that a Fazioli has unlimited > power, just > >like, or even more, than a Steinway. > >A Yamaha CFIII-S basically does not give that same avalanche of > >loudness although they may 'thunder' (the legendary S. Richter for > >instance on a unique instrument built for him only. They > have become > > >more subtle because they have, just like the others, a long history > of > >piano making behind them and an adapted taste. That's exactly why a > YAM > >CFIII-S 'can be' magnificent, masterly, and truly > satisfying because > > >the instrument is balanced and rightly developed. They brought > together > >the right materials and they have learned through > experience how to > >treat those materials. > >I am more than convinced that Fazioli eventually will find > its true > >course. I am definitely not saying that Fazioli is a mediocre > >instrument, on the contrary! They have, I think, a great deal of > >possibilities and technically speaking they are superb. It > is just a > > >matter of more time. > > > >Some Asian piano makers (I am not talking about Yamaha and Kawai) > also > >have not found their true course. The Koreans are rapidly > developing > > >ways to flood the World with even more low cost pianos. I was there > in > >the Samick factories in Incheon and Djakarta and I was > amazed by the > > >speed and the quantities of instruments leaving the factory(great > >guitars too). They basically have good material (Wurzen > hammers from > > >Renner, soundboards from Italy, Keyboards from Germany), but they > still > >have to find a stable course. Maybe Bechstein (50% take over) will > be > >of great influence? The Chinese make all the stuff in the World. > They > >make literally everything and they make it in a very inexpensive > way. I > >have seen, and worked on, several Chinese 'Perzina' uprights. > >They amazed me by their already reasonable quality but they still > have > >a long time to go, unless they can buy the right people > for a lot of > > >dollares to make very fast competitive changes. > > > >Anyway....my little story turned out a little longer than expected. > >Hopefully it made any sense at all? > > > >Antares, > >The Netherlands > > > >see my website at : www.concertpianoservice.nl > > > > > > > >On maandag, jun 2, 2003, at 11:03 Europe/Amsterdam, Dave Nereson > wrote: > > > ><excerpt> > > > > What?? The Steinways I've seen have always had an > egg-shaped > >hammer. Aren't we sposeta file trying to remove only one layer of > >felt, or enough to remove the string grooves, without changing the > >shape of the whole hammer (unless it's a grossly misshapen mess due > to > >someone else's botch job)? > > > ></excerpt> > > > >Alright Dave, my explanation.......... > > > > > >Let me first state the following : I have only limited experience > with > >Steinways built in New York, so the Steinways I am talking > about are > >Hamburg Steinways and they ARE different. > > > >The Steinways built in Hamburg have Renner hammers with > Wurzen felt. > > > > >Those hammers are very round from the beginning and after first > >voicing they are filed into a diamond shape, and much more > 'diamondy' > >then you (or I) would have imagined (it is actually frightening at > >first to see how small a STW becomes after first filing. > > > >This filing process is pretty extreme, but it does give the STW's a > >certain 'edge' and brilliance you won't get if you leave them > >un-diamond-filed. > > > > > > > ><excerpt> And why would a Bechstein change for the worse > with a > >diamond-shaped hammer? > > > ></excerpt> > > > >Because certain instruments ask for a hammer shape that causes more > or > >less overtones. > > > >The Bechstein grand piano does not ask for a hammer which causes > extra > >brilliancy as the instrument itself already has a certain type of > >high overtone sound. Give it more or too much, and you will make it > an > >ugly yelling monster with a pierced and shrill voice. > > > > > > > ><excerpt> > > > > At Yamaha's Little Red Schoolhouse, they explained that > Yamaha > >purposely shapes their hammers with more of a diamond- than an > >egg-shape. > > > ></excerpt> > > > >Sure, but look at the older type Yamaha's please and the > hammers you > >order for those instruments. You will notice that they are > round and > >pear shaped from the beginning. > > > >The hammers for Yamaha's started to change into a more diamondy > shape > >with the introduction of the CFIII-S and at the same the > introduction > >of the Wurzen felt, mind you. > > > >The Wurzen felt is a much different kind of felt than the felt > Yamaha > >uses on the regular - not hand made - models. It causes a > different > >tone and asks for a different treatment too. I can tell you this > >because I had (private) lessons in Wurzen felt voicing in the > Yamaha > >CFIII-S department (within the factory), the Steinway factory in > >Hamburg and the Bechstein factory in Berlin. > > > >(At one time I met the technical director of Yamaha in Hamburg - > Herr > >Professor Dokter L|demann (ja ja) - and I proudlu told him about > 'my > >discovery' of the 'new' Wurzen felt, to which he sneered by telling > me > >that already some time ago he had made the same discovery and that > >already they had proto-type CFIII-S actions with Wurzen hammers! > Later > >that year, while being in Hamburg, he summoned me to a secret place > >where he showed me one of those 'Wurzen hammer' actions. > > > >At Yamaha they are now changing there hammers because they > have also > >changed their models. Those things go hand in hand. > > > > > > > ><excerpt> Are we saying that if the felt is on the soft > side > >(Steinway, especially early ones, and even late ones, compared to > >Asian hammers), it will compress too much on a hard blow, > flattening > >out and cancelling partials, giving a dull tone, so we should file > >them to more of a diamond shape? How do you do that without > cutting > >across layers of felt in the hammer? > > > ></excerpt> > > > >There is difference in felt making between felt makers. One of the > >hammer makers pre-sands its hammers and makes its felt is much and > >much more dense. This causes a brilliant tone from the > beginning but > >after a year or two the instruments quickly lose their erstwhile > >beauty because the fibers in the hammers, which were much more > massed > >up together in the first place (and thereby lost a lot of their > >natural resilience) become kind of hard thudding dead clonkers, to > be > >replaced as soon as possible. Those clonkers are dead > lumps if felt, > >there is no more 'life' in them. > > > >I have experience with those clonkers for instance on Fazioli's and > >Seilers. > > > >Especially one Fazioli concert grand (and initially a nice Seiler > too) > >I remember very well. It was a gift from, I think, a bank > to a brand > >new Theater somewhere here in Holland. The Fazioli became - > extremely > >- ugly within 3 years and was given away!, to be replaced > by a brand > >new Steinway D (although I wish that I could have heard/played one > of > >Ron Overs' grands as he is, according to me, one of the leading > piano > >makers in the world). > > > >The Wurzen felt is not sanded from the beginning and the highly > >resilient felt layers stay intact, causing the same very > lively tone > >that the early Steinways had in earlier days. > > > > > ><excerpt> And if the felt is dense (Asian and others) and > already > >diamond-shaped (Yamaha and other Asian pianos), then it should have > a > >richer tone because it does not flatten out and cancel partials? > But > >you said YAM's change for the worse with a > diamond shape. What do > >you mean, "change"? They already have the diamond shape....??? > > > ></excerpt> > > > >YAM's change for the worse if you re-shape their hammers as if they > >are modern (Hamburg) STW's. Why? because it alters the tone in the > >wrong way. The tone becomes overstrained and hyper, with the > emphasis > >on the higher partials which the Yamaha does not need as they are > >already pretty brilliant. If we take the development of Yamaha's > into > >consideration we may notice that the early Yamaha's were shrill and > >tinkly instruments. They clearly were accepted by the Japanese > >consumers (at the time) but Yamaha had to adapt to a more 'Western > >taste' of listening, which, over the years, resulted in a neutral > kind > >of Steinway clone, but without the 'boom' and richness of said STW. > >(they are built completely different in the end and have gone their > >own way) > > > >In my perception of, and experience with, piano sounds, > the shape of > a > >hammer has to adapt to the characteristics of a soundboard. The > >soundboard (and the strings), asks for a certain 'commotion', by in > >fact a very specific kind of hammer strike, that will cause it to > >sound in such a way that we as listeners will like and thus approve > >of. A Bechstein with a sharp protruding diamond shape hammers will > >definitely sound different than with a more rounded off, > egg shaped, > >hammer. A STW with a Bechstein hammer will sound a little dull, > >without the specific STW brilliance and color gradation we expect > from > >it. A Bvsendorfer with a STW hammer will 'speak too loud' and > thereby > >lose its romantic harmonics. > > > >A Fazioli would definitely be a more interesting instrument, > musically > >speaking, with Wurzen hammers. One of the much heard complaints > about > >Fazioli's is that they sound so very loud and too uniform, without > any > >change of 'color', which makes especially Bechsteins and > Bvsendorfers > >so attractive and magically divers. > > > >Instead, the Fazioli maker wishes for his instruments to SOUND and > >SOUND, as it were to prove that a Fazioli has unlimited power, just > >like, or even more, than a Steinway. > > > >A Yamaha CFIII-S basically does not give that same avalanche of > >loudness although they may 'thunder' (the legendary S. Richter for > >instance on a unique instrument built for him only. They > have become > >more subtle because they have, just like the others, a long history > of > >piano making behind them and an adapted taste. That's exactly why a > >YAM CFIII-S 'can be' magnificent, masterly, and truly satisfying > >because the instrument is balanced and rightly developed. They > brought > >together the right materials and they have learned through > experience > >how to treat those materials. > > > >I am more than convinced that Fazioli eventually will find its true > >course. I am definitely not saying that Fazioli is a mediocre > >instrument, on the contrary! They have, I think, a great deal of > >possibilities and technically speaking they are superb. It > is just a > >matter of more time. > > > > > >Some Asian piano makers (I am not talking about Yamaha and Kawai) > >also have not found their true course. The Koreans are rapidly > >developing ways to flood the World with even more low cost > pianos. I > >was there in the Samick factories in Incheon and Djakarta and I was > >amazed by the speed and the quantities of instruments leaving the > >factory(great guitars too). They basically have good material > (Wurzen > >hammers from Renner, soundboards from Italy, Keyboards from > Germany), > >but they still have to find a stable course. Maybe Bechstein (50% > take > >over) will be of great influence? The Chinese make all the stuff in > >the World. They make literally everything and they make it > in a very > >inexpensive way. I have seen, and worked on, several Chinese > 'Perzina' > >uprights. > > > >They amazed me by their already reasonable quality but they still > have > >a long time to go, unless they can buy the right people > for a lot of > >dollares to make very fast competitive changes. > > > > > >Anyway....my little story turned out a little longer than expected. > > > >Hopefully it made any sense at all? > > > > > >Antares, > > > >The Netherlands > > > > > >see my website at : www.concertpianoservice.nl > > **************** END MESSAGE FROM antares@euronet.nl > ********************* > _____________________________ > David M. Porritt > dporritt@mail.smu.edu > Meadows School of the Arts > Southern Methodist University > Dallas, TX 75275 > _____________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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