tuning narrow and wide

[Tony Caught]

Hi David,

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Andersen" <bigda@gte.net>
To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: tuning narrow and wide


> on 6/18/03 6:28 AM, Ron Koval at drwoodwind@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Tony wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > Both narrow and wide measurements vary only below note 15 "B" and above
=
> > note 64 "C".
> I'm sorry, I'm coming in on the middle; what measurements?
INHARMONICITY MEASUREMENTS.
>
> >> From this one would assume that the narrowing and widening of a piano =
> > should only happen above and below those notes.
> > <snip>
> I don't agree with this at all; in my world, everything is stretched.

YES, EVERYTHING IS STRETCHED. BUT MY QUESTION IS FROM WHAT. ? Tuning by ear
the stretch is normal and natural, it is afterall what you are hearing. I
also get confused when people say wider or narrower, wider or narrower than
what. What is the standard. Is the Yamaha U1 measurements shown wide and
narrow or is it OK to be anywhere inbetween. Or, is it narrower if you have
less stretch than 4:2 in the bass and wider if more than 6:3 in the bass.
The treble is easy, 4:2, 4:1, 2:1, are all predictable, and a fine
balanceing act can be acceaved on most if not all pianos. But, the bass is
not so easy and you have to remember, the bass is the richest in harmonics.

> > Yes, that is one way to do it, though I think the way to a more blended
or
> > organic sounding tuning also involves the width of the temperament
octave.
> > Think about it, we use that octave as the foundation to work to both
ends of
> > the keyboard, so small changes here are multiplied by the inharmonicity
> > effect as we compare back and forth.
> Yes.
>
> I guess I'll float this out here again.  For me, the slowly rolling beats
of
> the fourths and the barely rolling beats of the fifths are much easier to
> hear accurately than thirds/sixths/tenths/seventeenths; they take you to
the
> same place in ET, and the fourths and fifths are much more precise.
> The piano will tell you the speed the fourths should beat, but it's
between
> .5 and 1.2 bps.  ALL THE FOURTHS ON THE PIANO SHOULD BEAT AT THE SAME
SPEED.
> The fifths should barely beat, should be juuust flat---maybe 1 long,
sloowww
> beat every 3 seconds.
>
> If you're patient, and can wait for the garbage to clear away, you can
> listen to fourths all the way down to note #1, and all the way up to the
> top, although I rely on octaves(sgl./dbl./trpl./quadrpl.) above note 64 or
> so, checking the odd 11th and 18th here and there if I think I'm being
> fooled by an octave.
>
> The point is this:  the more precise you are, and I mean incredibly
precise,
> with the temperament, the more precise and musical the entire tuning will
> be. I don't use a muting strip any more; I find my tunings SO much more
> solid and precise using just  a single mute; it's like a mini- pitch raise
> on every note, and you know that note's going to stay exactly where you
put
> it.  And, you're challenged to get the unisons perfect.  No wonder every
> single great concert prep wizard until relatively recently used the same
> "old school" system; it's rock solid, and I can do it on most good grands
in
> 75 minutes.
>
> That's one beautiful outcome of machines: if it's a good one, it'll put
the
> first string tuned very, very close to where the finest aural tuners would
> put it, and then you lock the other two strings to it.  If the whole
unison
> goes slightly narrow or wide in the process, no problem, you just shim it
up
> or down slightly, and BOOM! it stays where you put it.
>
> I'd be happy to talk further with anyone about my tuning protocol.......
>
> Just $.02 from a rock and rolling tone pig.......
>
> My best to all.
>
> David Andersen
> Malibu, CA

Tony Caught
Adelaide Australia
caute@bigpond.com.au