Help with "bad" tuning...need help

James Grebe pianoman@accessus.net
Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:12:04 -0600


Hi Terry,
At A-4, 1 CPS = 3.8 cents

James Grebe
Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair
Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups
(314) 608-4137
WWW.JamesGrebe.com
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Arnold, MO 63010
BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
pianoman@accessus.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "pianolover 88" <pianolover88@hotmail.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Help with "bad" tuning...need help


> another way to look at it is "cycles". Each cycle is comprised of 4 cents. 
> So, 100 cents flat, or 1/2 step flat is 25 cycles flat, or A 415.
>
> Terry Peterson
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Robin Hufford &lt;hufford1@airmail.net&gt;
> Reply-To: Pianotech &lt;pianotech@ptg.org&gt;
> To: Pianotech &lt;pianotech@ptg.org&gt;
> Subject: Re: Help with &quot;bad&quot; tuning...need help
> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:58:39 -0600
>
> List,
>    A half step is an adjacent key in the context of a piano keyboard.   It 
> may be white to white as in the case of e-f, or b-c.  It may be a white 
> key to an adjacent black key, or a black key to a white one.  There are 
> two adjacent pairs of white keys on the piano, those mentioned above. 
> There are no black to black half steps as a white key will always be in 
> between any two black keys chosen so as to be as close together as is 
> possible.     Two half steps means an interval of a whole step, usually 
> referred to as a whole tone.  This may be white to white, black to black, 
> white to black or black to white.
>     The foregoing emanates from the layout of the keys on the keyboard 
> itself without reference to notation.  A second consideration obtains when 
> notation is taken into account.  Half steps must have adjacent letters 
> names, that is they must be proximate to one another in the sequence of 
> the musical alphabet which is (a, b , c, d, e, f, g, a, g, ......).   The 
> same requirement occurs for whole tones, that is the interval must be 
> named with proximate letters.  (A to b) is one such  proximate pair, as is 
> ( b to c), along with the others.   Well, which is it?  Half or whole? 
> This is determined by reference to the natural layout of the keyboard and 
> the use or absence of a sharp or flat sign to indicate the half steps 
> found on the keyboard referred to in the first paragraph above.
>      Intervals are named for the number of letter names they contain:  For 
> example, counting upwards,  (a-a) is a unison, (a-b) is a second as it 
> contains two letter names.  Similarly (a-c) is a third;(a-d), a fourth. 
> etc. You can count up and name any interval you wish, although some are 
> more standard than others.       The number of half steps contained in the 
> interval determines, in the case of the second, whether it is a major or a 
> minor second, that is a half tone or whole tone, or, alternatively, a half 
> step or a whole step.  ALL WHOLE TONES MUST CONTAIN ONLY TWO HALF STEPS. B 
> to c is intrinsincally a half step on the keyboard, as mentioned above. 
> B- c(sharp) is now a hole tone as it contains two half steps.  So is 
> b(flat) to c.  There are other somewhat arcane complexities, for example 
> what is b(flat) to c(sharp)?  This is an augmented, major second.  For 
> technicians who are not musicians, it is best to ignore such things.  This 
> method of naming may be applied similarly to any note on the keyboard 
> subject to certain limitations which are in the nature of definitions. 
> The reference to whole tones contained above is just such one definition. 
> There are others some of which are ALL MAJOR THIRDS MUST CONTAIN FOUR HALF 
> STEPS, MINORS THIRDS MUST BE ONLY THREE HALF STEPS. etc.
>      There is no major third, as technicians are sometimes wont to do, 
> which can correctly be referred to as a to D(flat).  This would, as it 
> contains  four letter names, be a contracted, or diminished  fourth, even 
> though acoustically, it would be, in fact, the sound of the major third, 
> which should correctly be referred to as a to c(sharp).  This seems 
> paradoxical but there is an underlying logic and utility in these rules of 
> naming as they correspond, in an amazingly logical way considering that 
> they have developed from musicians, to the harmonic motion inherent in the 
> actual music which the notation attempts to express.     In the cents 
> notation, which expresses the logarithmic aspect of equal temperament, one 
> octave itself comprises 1200 cents, which encompasses an actual doubling 
> of frequency.  Obviously each half step contains 100 cents, which means  a 
> whole tone or step comprises 200, a whole tone and a half step, 300, etc. 
> These are equal ratios and not counts of frequencies per second.  One can 
> not impose upon the frequency difference of any two adjacent notes, by 
> definition a half step or a hundred cents, an equal division of the 
> frequency difference and arrive at a value for a cent,  as 100 cents are, 
> in actuality, not an equal division by a hundred, but, rather, a hundred 
> equal ratios, as Bob Scott pointed out only a few weeks ago.     This 
> means, for example, if you could find a half step comprised of a hundred 
> hertz, or arbitrarily defined it such,  that a cent does not equal one 
> hertz.  Rather, a cent is the number, which, when multiplied by the 
> frequency of the lower note and, done, 99 more times, will produce the 
> frequency of the upper note. These are equal ratios, not equal divisions.
> Regards, Robin Hufford     in iannaman@aol.com wrote:
>
> &gt;In a message dated 12/16/04 4:06:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> &gt;pianoman@accessus.net writes:
> &gt;
> &gt;
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;I think part of the problem is that we are calling these half
> &gt;&gt;steps.  The
> &gt;&gt;distance between E and F is no larger than between F and F#.  It 
> is
> &gt;&gt;still
> &gt;&gt;100 cents.  Why do we insist on calling those things whole steps
> &gt;&gt;anyway.?
> &gt;
> &gt;
> &gt;
> &gt;James,
> &gt;
> &gt;These are half-steps(not whole steps), aka half-tones, semi-tones or
> &gt;minor seconds, and there are 100 equal divisions between them.  Each
> &gt;one of these miniscule portions is called a cent.
> &gt;
> &gt;Dave Stahl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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