I think it depends on how you use the tool. Even the most sophisticated machines don't allow you to stop listening altogether--or they shouldn't. There are still many things that must be confirmed by ear, degree of stretch or style, smooth compromises of octaves and thirds in trouble areas of the piano, etc.. Having a measuring device to confirm what you think you are hearing in terms of various sizes of octaves, slighlty narrow or wide intervals, etc., can be very useful when you are learning. Tuning unisons is done by ear anyway and that's where hammer technique and aural skills combine for instant feedback. That's where most beginners should practice anyway, in my opinion. You won't be able to tune a slightly narrow fifth if you can't tune a solid unison. But a good machine will give you instant measurement of those subtly altered intervals to tell you if you are right or wrong. If you have the opportunity to work side by side with a skilled aural tuner then an ETD may be unnecessary, but if you are mostly working alone (as most of us do), I think an ETD that makes direct interval measurement by dialing in coincident partials can be extremely useful. I like the SATIII for its ease in use for this type of thing, though other machines may better suit you as your skill level develops. If you fall into the habit of not listening, then you are right, the device can become a crutch that inhibits the development of aural skills, though it is really the not listening that is the inhibitor rather than the machine. As long as those who are learning use it in a disciplined way, I think the right device put to good use can speed up the learning process. Plus, they're fun. David Love davidlovepianos@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: Chris Gregg <cdgregg@telus.net> > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> > Date: 5/29/2004 9:55:11 AM > Subject: RE: Tuning Devices for learning (was Tuning Devices) > > Unfortunately I have to disagree with the use of an ETD for learning how to > tune aurally. As a person who has helped many students with aural tuning > skills, I insist that at least the time they spend with me will not include > an ETD. The reason is that all the checks that you need for a tuning are > available within the piano, and using an ETD to check the the work can be > demoralizing. Find a good aural tuner that can affirm what you are > doing. Your aural tuning skills will improve by leaps and bounds. > > > Chris Gregg. RPT > > At 08:21 PM 5/28/2004, you wrote: > >I agree with Mark AND David. I'm a student, two months with a hammer, > >and have just started using an ETD to test my practice. The immediate, > >non-subjective feedback was just what I need at this point. > > > >I want to be a rock-solid aural tuner before I start tuning for pay with > >an ETD. But since I live out in the "boonies", it's it difficult to get > >feedback. (I have an RPT coaching me, but he's an hour away and I work > >a full time "day" job.) > > > >But being the "perfectionist" that I am, I wanted to know "now" how I'm > >doing. > > > >I do agree with David. When I tried to "watch" my tuning, it made me > >not listen as well. I don't want to have that crutch. So I don't keep > >the ETD in view when I'm practicing. But after I'm done with my > >practice session, I check my work. Then I check it the next day to see > >if the pin held. That way I have an idea if I'm setting the pin > >correctly. > > > >I'm sure David wasn't referring to using an ETD in this context when he > >made his comments. But I had to respond. > > > >And, since this is my first "post" after lurking for awhile, I just want > >to say that you guys are great teachers! > > > >Joe Freeman > >Florida Student > >Future Associate Member (any day now) > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On > >Behalf Of Mark Davidson > >Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:02 PM > >To: Pianotech > >Subject: Tuning Devices for learning (was Tuning Devices) > > > >David Nereson wrote: > > >I recommend learning to tune FIRST BY EAR > > >ALONE, then consider an electronic tuning > > >aid after you know what you're doing. > > >Otherwise the chances of its becoming a > > >crutch and your not developing your ear are > > >far greater, in my opinion. > > > >Well, I don't want to get into the argument about who is > >a "real" tuner and who isn't, but I think ETDs are a > >fantastic learning tool when used thoughtfully and judiciously. > > > >I too am in the process of learning to tune, and I consider > >the ETD to be an invaluable feedback tool. Yes, I suppose > >there could be a risk of coming to rely on it too much, but > >it can help learning in many ways. > > > >1. checking stability. You can easily measure the effect of > >test blows on notes you have tuned, or come back in a day > >or week and check on them and quickly get an accurate > >measure of the changes. Very helpful while learning to > >set pins. When you come back the next day and everything > >has dropped 2 cents and the humidity hasn't changed, then > >you know you haven't got it yet :( > > > >2. tuning to a fork. Easily compare your fork to the string > >after tuning it by ear to see how much error there is. > > > >3. comparing pitches/partials. After tuning two partials > >together by ear, you can precisely measure the frequencies > >to see how close you got them. This kind of instant > >feedback is very helpful for learning to tune unisons and > >octaves, or other pure intervals. > > > >4. checking accuracy of temperament. Some ETDs > >measure beats, but you can calculate these too from > >the frequencies of the partials. > > > >Other suggestions? > > > >The key of course is that you use the ETD to check > >your work AFTER doing it by ear. But frankly I > >can't think of a better or quicker way to check > >some of these things when starting out, and I find > >the instant feedback very helpful. > > > >If you have a PC (preferably laptop) then Tunelab 97 is > >cheap and more than adequate for all the above tasks. > > > >The other real key is to find a good teacher... > > > >-Mark Davidson > > > >so umm, what is Proposition 12 anyway? or do I > >have to learn the secret handshake first to find out... > >_______________________________________________ > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > http://www.tuneit.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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