David, At 01:10 PM 5/29/04, you wrote: >I think it depends on how you use the tool. IMHO, before even starting to "THINK" about using a machine to tune, one should have spent HOURS & HOURS trying to tune unisons so they will stay where you put them. Until that happens, anything else is a waste of time. No matter how good the machine is. Thankfully, I tuned aurally for almost 25 yrs. before I ever started using a machine. But now that I do, I LOVE it! :-) Avery >Even the most sophisticated >machines don't allow you to stop listening altogether--or they shouldn't. >There are still many things that must be confirmed by ear, degree of >stretch or style, smooth compromises of octaves and thirds in trouble areas >of the piano, etc.. Having a measuring device to confirm what you think >you are hearing in terms of various sizes of octaves, slighlty narrow or >wide intervals, etc., can be very useful when you are learning. Tuning >unisons is done by ear anyway and that's where hammer technique and aural >skills combine for instant feedback. That's where most beginners should >practice anyway, in my opinion. You won't be able to tune a slightly >narrow fifth if you can't tune a solid unison. But a good machine will >give you instant measurement of those subtly altered intervals to tell you >if you are right or wrong. If you have the opportunity to work side by >side with a skilled aural tuner then an ETD may be unnecessary, but if you >are mostly working alone (as most of us do), I think an ETD that makes >direct interval measurement by dialing in coincident partials can be >extremely useful. I like the SATIII for its ease in use for this type of >thing, though other machines may better suit you as your skill level >develops. If you fall into the habit of not listening, then you are right, >the device can become a crutch that inhibits the development of aural >skills, though it is really the not listening that is the inhibitor rather >than the machine. As long as those who are learning use it in a >disciplined way, I think the right device put to good use can speed up the >learning process. Plus, they're fun. > >David Love >davidlovepianos@earthlink.net > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Chris Gregg <cdgregg@telus.net> > > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> > > Date: 5/29/2004 9:55:11 AM > > Subject: RE: Tuning Devices for learning (was Tuning Devices) > > > > Unfortunately I have to disagree with the use of an ETD for learning how >to > > tune aurally. As a person who has helped many students with aural tuning > > skills, I insist that at least the time they spend with me will not >include > > an ETD. The reason is that all the checks that you need for a tuning are > > available within the piano, and using an ETD to check the the work can be > > demoralizing. Find a good aural tuner that can affirm what you are > > doing. Your aural tuning skills will improve by leaps and bounds. > > > > > > Chris Gregg. RPT > > > > At 08:21 PM 5/28/2004, you wrote: > > >I agree with Mark AND David. I'm a student, two months with a hammer, > > >and have just started using an ETD to test my practice. The immediate, > > >non-subjective feedback was just what I need at this point. > > > > > >I want to be a rock-solid aural tuner before I start tuning for pay with > > >an ETD. But since I live out in the "boonies", it's it difficult to get > > >feedback. (I have an RPT coaching me, but he's an hour away and I work > > >a full time "day" job.) > > > > > >But being the "perfectionist" that I am, I wanted to know "now" how I'm > > >doing. > > > > > >I do agree with David. When I tried to "watch" my tuning, it made me > > >not listen as well. I don't want to have that crutch. So I don't keep > > >the ETD in view when I'm practicing. But after I'm done with my > > >practice session, I check my work. Then I check it the next day to see > > >if the pin held. That way I have an idea if I'm setting the pin > > >correctly. > > > > > >I'm sure David wasn't referring to using an ETD in this context when he > > >made his comments. But I had to respond. > > > > > >And, since this is my first "post" after lurking for awhile, I just want > > >to say that you guys are great teachers! > > > > > >Joe Freeman > > >Florida Student > > >Future Associate Member (any day now) > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On > > >Behalf Of Mark Davidson > > >Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:02 PM > > >To: Pianotech > > >Subject: Tuning Devices for learning (was Tuning Devices) > > > > > >David Nereson wrote: > > > >I recommend learning to tune FIRST BY EAR > > > >ALONE, then consider an electronic tuning > > > >aid after you know what you're doing. > > > >Otherwise the chances of its becoming a > > > >crutch and your not developing your ear are > > > >far greater, in my opinion. > > > > > >Well, I don't want to get into the argument about who is > > >a "real" tuner and who isn't, but I think ETDs are a > > >fantastic learning tool when used thoughtfully and judiciously. > > > > > >I too am in the process of learning to tune, and I consider > > >the ETD to be an invaluable feedback tool. Yes, I suppose > > >there could be a risk of coming to rely on it too much, but > > >it can help learning in many ways. > > > > > >1. checking stability. You can easily measure the effect of > > >test blows on notes you have tuned, or come back in a day > > >or week and check on them and quickly get an accurate > > >measure of the changes. Very helpful while learning to > > >set pins. When you come back the next day and everything > > >has dropped 2 cents and the humidity hasn't changed, then > > >you know you haven't got it yet :( > > > > > >2. tuning to a fork. Easily compare your fork to the string > > >after tuning it by ear to see how much error there is. > > > > > >3. comparing pitches/partials. After tuning two partials > > >together by ear, you can precisely measure the frequencies > > >to see how close you got them. This kind of instant > > >feedback is very helpful for learning to tune unisons and > > >octaves, or other pure intervals. > > > > > >4. checking accuracy of temperament. Some ETDs > > >measure beats, but you can calculate these too from > > >the frequencies of the partials. > > > > > >Other suggestions? > > > > > >The key of course is that you use the ETD to check > > >your work AFTER doing it by ear. But frankly I > > >can't think of a better or quicker way to check > > >some of these things when starting out, and I find > > >the instant feedback very helpful. > > > > > >If you have a PC (preferably laptop) then Tunelab 97 is > > >cheap and more than adequate for all the above tasks. > > > > > >The other real key is to find a good teacher... > > > > > >-Mark Davidson > > > > > >so umm, what is Proposition 12 anyway? or do I > > >have to learn the secret handshake first to find out... > > >_______________________________________________ > > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > http://www.tuneit.ca > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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