I won't speak for Ron but just want to comment that the notion that CC boards never last or produce a good tone has been covered a lot. From what I've read and from endless discussions I've had, none of the advocates of RC&S boards have made that claim. There are many examples of fine sounding CC boards out there. There are also many examples of failed ones. If I understand it correctly, whether a wide, shallow rib has some rib crowning doesn't really matter. In that system, the panel must still bear a lot of stress of compression. There are many examples of rib crowning in compression systems where the assembly didn't hold up or perhaps never got there to begin with. The goal, as I see it, is to create a more reliable and controllable system. The devil is still in the details. Just because you make an RC&S assembly doesn't mean it automatically sounds like you want it too. There are still several decision to be made that effect the tone including: materials, grain angle, thickness, rib radii and dimensions, number of ribs, configuration, scale, bridge height and probably a bunch of other stuff I will forget to mention. Remember, nearly all people who get into car accidents eat French fries. David Love davidlovepianos@comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of gordon stelter Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 4:31 PM To: Pianotech List Subject: Dear Mr. Nossaman.....( Was, "Why wide, flat ribs.....? ) Dear Mr. Nossaman, I am simply trying to ascertain why these 4 boards, which should be "crap" by the general "consensus" on this list are, instead, the best preserved ( tonally ) of any I've heard on pianos this old. ( And I've heard hundreds. ) My 3 previous inquiries reaped deafening silence. It was only after I cited a revered authority that someone ( you ) deemed it necessary to reveal that, in fact, wide, shallow ribs CAN have rib-crowning. Until then this feature was unanimously declared here as indicative of "Strictly CC" boards. ( Thank you very much. ) NOW, I am postulating that grain orientation was an integral, intentional feature of this design. I am incredulous regarding your assertion that a quarter-sawn piece of wood will have the same characteristics of elasticity and resistance to compression set, whether the rings run parallel to the board ( "Pancaked" ) or perpendicular ( "Vertical" ). If the rings are parallel, their naturally compact cellular structure will be largely in a state of tension due to soundboard crown, which I see as conducive to elasticity in the rib, and resistance to "compression set". ( Downbearing and vibration will get them closer to their pre-crowned state of density, but not beyond it. ) If, on the other hand, the rings are vertical, particularly if rib-crowning is cut into them, many more cells will be in compression, which may lead to excessive stiffness and and earlier breakdown of the system. ( Caused by compression set within the rib itself ). What I am getting at is this: There is no question in my mind that whoever built these boards knew what they were doing. All are from top manufacturers, and all have stood up over time, in a horrid climate, producing superlative tone. I am merely suggesting that they intentionally aimed for "the best of all possible worlds": wide, flat ribs of quartersawn spruce with the anular rings parallel to the board surface, for elasticity and longevity.... with some rib-crowning, as well. There is nothing wrong with postulating here. Sure, I'll take a good, close look at these things when I have the time. But part of the List's utility is that it provides an opportunity for those who have already done the looking to speak up, and there, unfortunately, are certain persons here who have established a hegenomy of opinion which intimidates, and thereby precludes others from venturing forth, for fear of having their "Heads bit off", as you did to me in your last. All mysteries that have faced mankind, individually and collectively, have first been assigned theoretical answers which empirical investigations confirm or debunk. I have presented an anomaly to the "List" "consensus": Four, shallow, wide ribbed pianos which all sound like thunder after 100 years in a truly lousy climate. I am merely seeking an explanation, and appreciate what positive information you have presented. I must confess, though, that I perceive some irritation based more on the fact that I have thrown a "monkey wrench" into the "accepted theory", rather than that I have merely not "learned enough" from what has been discussed before. Peace, Gordon .--- Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote: > > > I'd love to, if I ever get the time. > > If you have an hour to dedicate to your education, > you've got > the time. If not, you'll never know anyway. > > > >I'm guessin' that > > the intent of this rib design is to maximize > support, > > while retaining excellent elasticity, and that the > > grain orientation has a lot to do with it. > > Yes, that would indeed be guessing. The grain > orientation has > virtually nothing to do with it, which you could > find out for > yourself with minimal effort and sincere desire to > know. > > > > P.S. If anyone out there wants to test this > hypothesis > > before I can, please feel free, and please report > > back. > > It's been done, and reported to the list, as has > most of what > is eternally re-hashed here in perpetual mystery. > Asking > questions and speculating randomly is always easier > than > working something out for oneself and reaching one's > own > conclusions based on the logical reality of what one > finds, > and one gets the luxury of picking and choosing what > one > wishes to believe as a matter of convenience rather > than > considering what the cumulative evidence indicates. > Life is > easier, it seems, with the proper filters. > Ron N > _______________________________________________ > Pianotech list info: > https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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