100 year old piano, or close to it

[A440A@aol.com]

David writes:

<<     Many many records have out of tune pianos on them, especially in 

jazz and blues recordings, and some country-western.  

  Ah, it is certainly refreshing to hear someone call it "country-western!"  
The overly slick producers of the "music" here in Nashville have pretty much 
ruined that genre with something called "country", but I remember the great 
days of Ernest Tubb, Waylon, Hank Snow, Hank Williams, (actually, there were a 
lotta Hanks), Faron Young, Ed Ames, Webb Pierce,  and others.  The production 
values had not become so important that they shelved the magic of the musicians 
in favor of them.  
      I have repeatedly seen producers have a musician do a track over and 
over until it was perfectly refined and totally lifeless.  <sigh>

>>  It's not the recording -- the pianos sound out of tune because they 

ARE out of tune.  >>

      It may be strange to hear a tuner say that there is no such thing as 
out of tune, just the wrong venue for the sound, but there are some instances 
where tuning would have destroyed the feel.  I have several recordings by Dr. 
John in which the choral effects of busy unisons are a contributing factor to 
the sound. He makes it work.  
   Also, if you listen to the rock band "The Doors" recordings, you will hear 
a wildly tuned piano, (which sounds like a heavily lacquered spinet or 
console), that works perfectly with the rest of the instruments. It is more 
difficult to convey the sense of wild abandonment with a surgically clean tuning, 
which would have been out of place in these tracks. 
   I have, on occasion, been asked to knock a piano "out of tune" for certain 
recording sessions so that the "feel" of the old rag time, or saloon, sound 
could be evoked.  This must be every bit as valid as my regular work, since I 
got paid the same!  
   And while we are at it, (or maybe, just me wandering in the sematic 
warehouse), "in tune" doesn't describe any one particular sound, since we are always 
tempering (tampering),  with the consonance.  Maybe today's Western listener 
is accustomed to the normal, but is an ET third really the only "in tune" 
third? Historically, we have seen the keyboard third evolve from an unused discord 
in the 11th century, to Just in the 15-17th centuries, to variable size in 
the well tempered era, to exactly 13.7 cents in the last 100 or so years.  And 
is a unison that is crystal clear the only way it can be "in tune?" when 
musettes open their unisons by up to 35 cents, and in recording sessions, I am 
usually asked to open up my hurdy-gurdy chanterelles so they beat by 2-4 BPS?     
      Anita Sullivan's recent article in the Journal mentions the musicians 
rejection of her well-temperament in favor of the Silberman, which certainly 
has far more "out of tuneness" in places.  This is what they were used to, so 
that was what they sought as "in tune".  
    I don't know of any tuning that demonstrates a higher degree of control 
than ET, but sometimes, we lose sight of the musical qualities of various 
harmonic arrangements in pursuit of some display of exactitude.  Art, like life 
itself, is messy.  Perfect unisons and clear octaves are indicative of control, 
and sometimes it is great to lose it, (being a family sort of list, I won't go 
any farther with that). 
   Anyhow, it looks like Rochester is shaping up to be a tuning heavy 
convention, with a variety of temperaments as well as instruments on display.  With 
the rebuilders showcase being presented, perhaps we can prevail on some of them 
to change their tune by mid convention and see if it alters our impressions 
of whose piano speaks more finely than others!  I know that the second mouse 
gets the cheese, but the timid bear misses the honey... 
Regards, 
      
Ed Foote RPT 
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html