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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Diary of a mad pitch raise (Lance Lafargue)
2. DC installation/piano on truck (Jon Page)
3. Fandrich Handout Error (RicB)
4. RE: electronics replacing pianos? (Geoff Sykes)
5. RE: Elbow job (West Britt)
6. regulation problem (Jeff Miller)
7. regulation problem (Jon Page)
8. Re: elbow job (piannaman at aol.com)
From: "Lance Lafargue" <lafargue at bellsouth.net>
To: <atuneforyou at earthlink.net>, "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 13:29:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Diary of a mad pitch raise
If you use only one strip and tune the middle string, then pull every other unison open, tune, then reinsert same strip for other side, the one strip method will fit in even an upright and the same speed is essenticially acheived as the two strip method, it just takes a few extra seconds to reinsert. (Dan's two strip method is to prevent having to reinsert for the other side. As I mentioned before, reinserting also allows for tuning the last unison to one string instead of two, allowing for less interference). This method has worked well for me and the piano is at A-440 and my final round is stable and I am picky at the end with unisons, so the end product, for me, is very good. This method changed my working life and consequently income. I don't even charge more for a pitchraise, my normal fee is just healthy. By mastering it, I became very fast. I encourage you to give it a chance - you might just like it. Regards,
Lance Lafargue, RPT
LAFARGUE PIANOS, LTD
LPIANOS.com
lafargue at bellsouth.net
4244 Hwy 22 Mandeville, LA 70471
985.72P.IANO
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Blasyak
To: Pianotech List
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Diary of a mad pitch raise
Hey Now,
I think it was Alan Barnard who mentioned the two strip method seemed to applicable to grands only.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: atuneforyou at earthlink.net;pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: 1/6/2007 4:58:46 AM
Subject: Re: Diary of a mad pitch raise
Hi Steve,
Not sure whether or not I am the Alan referred to earlier in your post. In case I am, to clarify, when I raise pitch, I also tune unisons as you go from the bottom up. The alternate double striping is for the final pass on a grand.
Regards,
Alan Eder
-----Original Message-----
I do have a different philosophy when it comes to pitch raises. My goal is to equalize and stabilize the tension of the piano. My belief is if you increase the pressure on the bridge and sound board from the bottom up like a wave. Tuning strings adjacent to one another on the bridge were the tension of the string has the most effect on its neighbors. Increasing down bearing on the sound board in equal increments. If I understand the two strip method correctly it seems to me you are changing the tension on strings and down bearing on the bridge and leaving gaps to go back and do again. After the first pass of the section doing left string right string, you double back and do the other side. Sort of a hop scotch method.This may be faster but is it as effective?
Steve
Pura Vida
Steve Blasyak
atuneforyou at earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
---------------------------------
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From: Jon Page <jonpage at comcast.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:00:55 -0500
Subject: DC installation/piano on truck
>>I'd be worried about the water sloshing around and spilling during move.
>Having installed more than a few DC systems where a truck is involved I've
>found sloshing has never been reported. YMMV.
Ok, one venue I advised against it because the piano frequently was relocated
onto the Alter rise of a church and had to up and down a temporary ramp.
That ramp is a piece of engineering if I say so myself :-) four pieces rising to
about 15" w/ cut-out for stairs. The 'stage extension' is another marvel.
Simple but solid. Sorry no pix.
--
Regards,
Jon Page
From: RicB <ricb at pianostemmer.no>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 02:46:29 +0100
Subject: Fandrich Handout Error
Hi folks
Been reviewing Delwins handout entitled "Piano Scalemaking" and noticed in the formula he gives for J (string stiffness) what appears to be an error and I'd apreciate a correction/clarification.
The formula reads J = (pi^2Yd^2kL^2K)/32 and both Y and K are defined as being 1.9 * 10^11 N/m^2.
Doesnt sound likely that Both Y and K would be of an identical such value without some further simplification... ends up being Y ^2 or K^2.
Can somebody clear this up for me ? I'd also like to know what the small k value is. It is defined as an unspecified numerical constant in the handout.
Cheers
RicB
From: "Geoff Sykes" <thetuner at ivories52.com>
To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:15:39 -0800
Subject: RE: electronics replacing pianos?
Got me thinking about acoustics, which is actually very Zen. Not the thinking. The acoustics.
A musical instrument, with the possible exception of brass, is not a single point sound source. Add to that the environment in which it is performing and you have a real 3D aural experience. A microphone, on the other hand, is a single point device. (Binaural, or dummy-head, recording is an entirely different matter. And since, by design, binaural recordings are intended to be reproduced through headphones I don't think they belong in this discussion.)
Let's pretend that a piano is just an extremely large variation on an acoustic guitar. Now let's talk about the acoustic guitar. The sound that comes out of the guitar is not just from the strings any more than it is in a piano. The body is both a resonate cavity and an amplifier. The sound, therefore, comes from so many places: the hole, front and real sound-boards, and even the neck to some extent. Add to that the environment in which it is being played and you now you have to think about the reflections of that sound coming off the floor, ceiling and walls. What are those surfaces made of? How far away are they? You just cannot capture that entire audio picture with one, or even two or three microphones. Single point recording devices are only capturing the sound as it exists at their placement. On the other hand we, as listeners, are hearing the entire three dimensional environment.
So, you mic an instrument up close and you get documentation of a single point of sound coming off that instrument. You then run that recording through whatever electronics and a speaker and you still only have reference to that original single point source. OK, so you record that instrument with a number of mics, placing some of them out in the room. You now have your original close mic reference plus some added room. You now have a decent recording of that instrument, but you also now have a decent recording of that room. In other words, it is still not a recording of the sound that the instrument is actually producing. If you play that recording back into the same room in which it was recorded you are now adding the recorded sound of that space back into that same space allowing it to interact with it a second time.
Now, grow that acoustic guitar into a piano. With this increase in size the complexity of the object producing sound in the environment just grows right along with it. Not to mention the increase in complexity of the sound waves coming off it's many surfaces.
The only thing that will ever sound like a real live three dimensional piano in a given space is going to be a real live three dimensional piano in a given space. Anything else, no matter how good the recording, is just an incomplete reproduction. And without the technology to both capture that three dimensional object in three dimensions, and then reproduce it in a similar three dimensional way, the best we can hope for is stereo, which is missing a lot more than just one dimension.
Part of what I'm saying here is why, in my opinion, an electronic piano may never sound like a real piano. Part of what I'm saying is in answer to Alan's questions as to why they, piano's, are so hard to record. Coming from years of experience as a recording engineer I would like to suggest to anyone wanting to record a piano, or any instrument for that matter, to first understand what that instrument is supposed to sound like. While it is being played, move around the instrument and see how your perception of the sound changes as you move. Once you find a position where you like the sound of the instrument, put up a couple of high quality mics, right there. Then go back into the control room and listen to that sound flat, with no eq and no reverb. If you have decent monitors it should sound pretty darn close to what you heard out in the studio. If not, before you go changing things in the control room, start moving the mics around in small amounts until you are
satisfied. Remember, what you do in the control room should be viewed as frosting, or perhaps polishing. Bad micing cannot be corrected by eq.
Let me follow up by saying that what I suggest up above is for recording a solo performance only. Different micing techniques are necessary for different types of music and the number of musicians in the room at the time. Also the make up of instruments. A solo acoustic instrument clear up to a full orchestra in a decent hall can frequently be recorded very nicely with a stereo pair. Piano, bass and drums will likely take six or seven mics. But knowing what each instrument, or combination of instruments, sounds like in that environment is still the most important place to start.
Gee, I must be up to at least a nickel by now.
-- Geoff Sykes
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of reggaepass at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:21 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: electronics replacing pianos?
..and the piano seems to be one of the hardest instruments to faithfully reproduce through recording, if not the hardest. Any thoughts as to why that is?
Alan Eder
-----Original Message-----
What they ultimately proved is that no matter how good the recording and the playback systems, there is always some extra lows and some extra highs and some extra nuance that just plain won't record or playback. I think the same holds true for even the high-end sampled electronic pianos today. They do sound pretty darn good, but they don't really sound real. And I don't think that they will be able to reproduce a real enough sound from an electronic device anytime soon enough for it to effect many of us.
-- Geoff Sykes -- Assoc. Los Angeles
---------------------------------
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From: West Britt <brittsam at charter.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:29:26 -0500
Subject: RE: Elbow job
I just replaced the plastic elbows on a Winter spinet this week. It took a little less than 2 hours. I use the Vagias snap on elbows from Pianotek (# EL-S). I had the action in a cradle on the bench. I first clamped some vice grip pliers on the wire snug up against the old elbow on note 1. I squeezed the old elbow with alligator pliers right in the whippen mortise around the center pin and the old elbow crumbled off (on all 88). Be careful not to damage the mortise. If the elbows do not break off use end nip pliers. Holding the wire or vice grips I then broke off or twisted off the old elbow and spun the new one up to the vice grips. With the Vagais elbows there is no need to repin the whip mortises. You just snap them on to the old center pin and move on to the next one. There is no need to remove the whips. As you work be aware of wasted motion, and when removing the vice grips from one wire clamp them onto the next instead of setting them down on the
bench. I do, however, set down the alligator pliers after removing the old elbow from the whip. This will help speed up the process without having to hurry. The reason for using the vice grips is so that when you put the action back in the piano the lost motion will be close to where it was before and save time in setting it. While you are at it, call the customer and tell them that it will be cheaper for them to let you go ahead and replace the plastic damper flanges that are frequently on these pianos as well. I use Pianotek #PW-DF10 standard damper flanges for most. This will save you from breaking one while putting the action back in the piano and do them the service of not having continuous damper problems when they start breaking as well. It took me 3 hours for this and I would be glad to detail the procedure if anyone was interested.
I hope this helps,
Britt West
From: Jeff Miller <ljmiller3 at sbcglobal.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:57:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: regulation problem
I am trying to regulate a Yamaha G1 grand. (trying being the key word here). This is my first regulation for pay and boy is it giving me problems. I have set key height at 45 .5 mm, blow at 47.5 mm, dip using the jaras key dip jig ( I think that would be 3/4 inch). Anyway, I get ready to check my after touch and nothing!!! The white keys are bottoming out on the black keys front rail felt. What in the world am I doing wrong? Please help.
Jeff Miller
Miller Piano Service
Abilene, TX
ljmiller3 at sbcglobal.net
From: Jon Page <jonpage at comcast.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:23:17 -0500
Subject: regulation problem
> I have set key height at 45 .5 mm
Key height should be 65.5 mm, sharps 12 mm above naturals. Dip 10 mm and get a key dip block.
--
Regards,
Jon Page
I'm sorry. I ment to type 65.5. This was the measurement that I used.
From: piannaman at aol.com
To: ilvey at sbcglobal.net, pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:18:14 -0500
Subject: Re: elbow job
Lubrication is good for this...I forgot to mention that I proteked the wooden nut, as well as the threaded end, and the clip in/bushing slot before putting the wire assembly back in place. It made life a helluva lot easier.
One other thing about this particular job: the wires had a very slight, maybe 5 degree bend in them about an inch from the top. I had to make sure they were all facing the right direction in relation to the elbow before they went back in place, or regulation wasn't possible. I don't remember that particular feature in any other lifters. Sohmer did have their own way of doing things.
Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
650-224-3560
dstahlpiano at sbcglobal.net
http://dstahlpiano.net/
-----Original Message-----
From: ilvey at sbcglobal.net
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: elbow job
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I might add a dab of lube before screwing on the elbow. I have also bought the entire fixture, clip elbow/wire and nut. Anyone care to respond if this is faster? I do remember (been awhile) the wooden nut was very tight... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Jon Page" <jonpage at comcast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Received: 1/6/2007 10:08:10 AM Subject: elbow job >To remove the stubborn bit of plastic left on the center pin, nip it away >with a reduced, mini end-nipper (jpg attached). This tip surfaced on >this list over 10 years ago. >To install the new elbows on the wire, first attach Vise-Grips at the end >of the old elbow and cut the elbow off. I simply screw the new elbow on >up to the V-G. I don't see this being any slower than waiting for a torch >to heat the wire and melt it in, I'd be a little concerned about melting it >in slightly askew (speculating),
where screwing it in follows the hole. >No need for an extra appliance and fuel. Power driving with a drill >is counter productive DAMHIK. >-- >Regards, >Jon Page
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