[pianotech] High treble tuning musing - unison perfection

[Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft]

I didn't have time to reply to this thread yesterday. I have also 
experienced what is being discussed here.

My thought is that while the individual strings are each in tune, they are 
out of phase with each other and cancelling each others vibration. Pull them 
apart slightly and they sing again.

My2cents

Al G

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From: "Tom Sivak" <tvaktvak at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:35 AM
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] High treble tuning musing - unison perfection

> I totally agree with your concept of slightly detuned unisons in the high 
> treble.  But I think what works in octave 7 works elsewhere, too.
>
> And...I'll get flamed for this...I believe this is the secret to Virgil 
> Smith's incredibly warm tunings.   And, the source of the "Virgil Effect".
>
> But that's just what I think, so consider the source.
>
> In college, back when synthesizers were modular units consisting of 
> oscillators, envelope generators, filters, etc., that were "patched" 
> together with "patch" cords, it was common practice to link two 
> oscillators (sound sources) together and slightly detune them for a 
> "fatter" sound.  It gave the sound depth, and seemingly more volume. 
> Three oscillators would exaggerate this effect.
>
> On really good pianos, to my perception, slightly wide unisons can 
> increase sustain throughout the range of the steel string trichords.  It 
> also helps mask the transition to wound strings, which I attempt to tune 
> as dead unisons.  It can also change the attack portion of the sound, the 
> instant the hammer hits the string, making it less "thumpy".  Sometimes.
>
> Now you all know the depth of my insanity.  Call me crazy, and I'll only 
> agree with you.
>
> Tom Sivak
> Chicago
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/30/08, John Dorr <a440 at bresnan.net> wrote:
>
>> From: John Dorr <a440 at bresnan.net>
>> Subject: [pianotech] High treble tuning musing - unison perfection
>> To: pianotech at ptg.org
>> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 3:57 PM
>> I've been chewing on a few ideas about tuning the high
>> treble tuning lately.
>>  I'm not going to post all of them at once, suspecting
>> how the discussion is
>> likely to splinter into other tangents.  So I want to
>> introduce one idea at a
>> time for the list's feedback.
>>
>> First idea -- seems like when I NAIL a unison in the high
>> treble the note can
>> become lower in volume and sustain and less interesting in
>> content.  I was in
>> a class given by Don Manino once ("The Sound of Your
>> Tuning") where he
>> suggested and demonstrated SLIGHTLY detuning one of the
>> strings of the unison
>> up there to attempt to increase the sustain.  There were
>> two same-model pianos
>> in the room and he did a direct A-B comparison.  I was
>> sold.  Sustain was
>> noticeably increased with the detuned unison.  And it had a
>> little "shimmer"
>> to it - not really an objectionable beat, just a
>> "shimmer", maybe a slow
>> vibrato or slow-rolling beat, though the length of the
>> sustain wasn't long
>> enough to make the slow-rolling
>> "shimmer"/vibrato/beat at all unmusical.
>>
>> Perfect unisons of course assume strings that are not
>> self-beating.  As we
>> know, some pianos are not able to acheive that in some or
>> many high treble
>> strings, and thus create their own imperfections, often
>> ANNOYING
>> imperfections.  In these cases, the PURE unisons also make
>> their impure
>> neighbors stand out in comparison, so DEtuning the pure
>> ones may make for a
>> little more consistency in the piano's sound.
>>
>> Another little interesting phrase that was related to me
>> second-hand was from
>> an older, presumably very experienced tech who was fond of
>> saying, "Don't tune
>> the life out of the unison!"  I would assume the
>> phenomena I've described
>> above would be what he's referring to here, too.
>>
>> Your thoughts?
>>
>> BTW, I don't remember really whether Don recommended
>> detuning the one string
>> to the flat or to the sharp side.  I SEEM to remember flat,
>> but I'm unsure.
>
>