Hi David: I agree with most everything you say below, and I don't think my earlier comments offered anything contradictory. The greater pitch stability one can bring to the piano (through the damp chaser or by other means of humidity control), the easier it will be to tune the piano and keep it there. It is not a solution for the string rendering, it just makes the problem that still exists easier to deal with because you don't have to move the wire as often or as far to arrive at the desired pitch. So, if the ancillary environment to the damp chaser can be controlled sufficiently by the owner (such as keeping lids closed, unit plugged in,etc.), a damp chaser unit is a worthwhile investment for the customer - particularly for one who has the kind of sensitivity to changes in tuning that Geoff's customer has. I think Geoff has offered us an interesting clue about the customer, and one that is an important part of the equation in this lengthy thread that so many have contributed to. Geoff tells us that she already has a full damp chaser system that she does not use and that she keeps the lid open. I think damp chasers are wonderful, but they do require a small amount of discipline on the part of the customer. Keep it plugged in, add water as soon as needed, change pads as needed (do it themselves or have the technician do it, but do it expeditiously), always keep lids closed when the piano is not being used. To the extent that the customer is not conscientious about attending to these needs, they diminish the effectiveness of the unit. If the customer is not willing to use the damp chaser along with the necessary discipline, and Geoff has already lubricated the bearing surfaces but she is not willing to consider the larger corrective measures of restringing and such, then we have a problem that cannot be solved within the confines of those parameters. As long as Geoff is willing to go back and clean things up for free, none of this is a problem for the customer. You and I would agree that it is important that the customer respect the value of our time. One would hope that the customer would have that consideration towards us anyway, but that is not always the case. We respect the value of our time by charging for it appropriately, and the customer will have more respect for the value of our time when they have to pay for it in a fair and consistent manner. If I were in Geoff's situation, I would begin charging for each and every callback. When she has to pay for each visit of this regular service, she may gain interest in doing other corrective measures, such as plugging the damp chaser in. Or she might feel that I am responsible for every small change in the tuning of the piano and want me to come back and correct things regularly free of charge. To which I would politely decline to continue to do without payment. She already has the explanation of why the problem exists, so if she chooses the services of another at this point, so be it. Will Truitt -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 2:03 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Satisfied but persistent customer question I agree that rendering problems will not be resolved by the DC. However, rendering problems and their contribution to instability are much more pronounced when the piano is subject to larger pitch swings. Poor rendering doesn't mean that the piano can't achieve stability. It does mean that it's more difficult to tell when the piano achieves stability (as Ron mentioned). By keeping the piano as close to constant pitch as possible you will have a better chance of establishing some greater level of stability--no guarantees. I wouldn't necessarily try and sell a bill of goods with promises that can't be made, rather, I would outline the overall problem, various approaches from least cost (and least but possibly somewhat effective) to higher cost (with greater chance of being effective) and help them decide within the constraints of their budget now to proceed. My guess is that a full DC system will be needed to help with stability even if you go the restringing route so starting there and seeing if there is improvement will not be a waste should they decide (if it's financially possible) to go the more complete route. Explained in that way I think you would obviate the risk of them feeling like you sold them something that was unnecessary. On the flip side, if you sell them a restringing job and then decide that they need the DC system as well, they may feel that you sold them a larger job when all they needed was the DC system. Right or wrong, you may have a more difficult time explaining that in a convincing manner. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Will Truitt Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:10 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Satisfied but persistent customer question Hi Geoff: I would like to add my little tidbit to Ron's offering. If the piano is played extensively - as in many hours a day, 5 days or more a week; the damp chaser may be ineffective. The reason I say this comes from my own experience as a tech here in the Northeast (New Hampshire) where we have long and cold winters and humid summers - generally a good set of conditions for recommending a d. c. unit. But a good teacher customer of mine comes to mind. She teaches 8 hours or more a day, so her Yamaha G-3 is open (at least the small lid) for probably close to half the day. There is simply too much free air moving through the piano for too long for the d. c. unit to keep it stable, and the control unit was not a good investment in her setting. Ron is right in that, if this is the case with her, she might end up thinking you sold her a bill of goods for good money that did nothing. It could worsen your relationship with her as a result. You may end up recommending restringing with the attendant bearing surfaces work. It would be my guess that this condition will only continue to worsen over time, along with an increase in your misery level and her frustration level. Sometimes we have to let the customer know that we can't give them what they want, but we can give them what they need. That's your selling job with her - to establish your credibility and clearly define the solution path. It is the customer's choice at that point to accept your diagnosis and path to correction, or look elsewhere. No apologies should be necessary or given - the piano is what it is. Good luck, Will Truitt -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 1:05 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Satisfied but persistent customer question Geoff Sykes wrote: > Greetings all -- > > I have a customer with a 1982 Kawai KG-C6 grand. I think it's past time to introduce her to reality. The string rendering problem means that you can't get enough information from the piano during tuning to leave it in a stable enough condition to be reliable. That's neither your fault, nor your problem. You're already giving it your best shot and picking up the pieces at your expense. Selling her a Dampp-Chaser system isn't going to help the rendering problem and won't be well received if it produces no improvement of the situation. Addressing the problem directly is, oddly enough, usually the best way to correct or at least improve it.The piano realistically needs work, likely extensive, to improve string rendering, with humidity control next on the list if it proves necessary. My call, Ron N
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